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     captain_chaza
Member
Username: captain_chaza
Post Number: 2907
Registered: 02-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:59 pm: |  
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Our Dear Friar Hilarius has stated somewhere on IC that Paper trading is exactly the same as Real trading
I disagree!
I think it is one of the greatest Lies I have ever heard
and I have no doubt there are plenty of Brave souls at the bottom of the oceans to prove I am RIGHT!
With great respect Dear Friar
How can anybody be so stupid ?
Salute and Gods' speed
"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.
"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893
"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2742
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:57 pm: |
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This is all the more reason for there being more posts Live2Air/Real Time Trades from Go to Whoh,Cap.
Don't forget you have TWO Short Term Posts going at present.
I've got a question for you regarding attached Options to Shares,Charles.
I'm looking at the wide differential between the actual share price and the Option price in CVI and KAL.
CVIO is redeemed at 15 cents sometime in the future but is trading at an all up cost of 35 cents[oppie~20cents] when the shares are at 24cents.
KALO is 6 cents,redeemable for 20 cents [June 08]yet the Shares are 17.5 cents today agin a 26 cent eventual Option.
This wide premium has been since,well at least 3 weeks not just today.
Do you see this pilgrim's "problem" CC?
WHY pay more eventually for an Option when you can buy the straight share for less?
yes,I see the leverage advantage but I just can't see the real Logic in paying such a wide premium.
Can you find time to Agony Aunt my question,CC?
Even 'til Jaded.
Dig for the sake of it.
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captain_chaza
Member
Username: captain_chaza
Post Number: 2910
Registered: 02-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:51 pm: |
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Ahoy Dear Duggie
It is not ONLY my job to work in the present
It is the job of the IC Moderators to sift out all the Garbage / Braggers and Non-informative posts
You you think this could be easy but it ain't
Each Internet Forum is judged by the quality of its Moderators
Such is life on the Internet!
Salute and Gods' speed
If BRAGGING and Talking in Hindsight is ever RESPECTED in this Forum
If So
It will Be
Then
It will Be in real time!
(Message edited by Captain_Chaza on December 18, 2007)
"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.
"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893
"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897
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hilarius
Member
Username: hilarius
Post Number: 3333
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 08:26 pm: |
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Dear Captain
It is not the function of the Moderators to act as quality controllers in a Forum that values free speech
All the Moderators can do is set reasonable boundaries within which it is the job of the members to improve the quality
You of all people should understand and value that
Your loyal and devoted
Friar Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
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hilarius
Member
Username: hilarius
Post Number: 3334
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 08:29 pm: |
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Dear Captain
Selection is everything whether we are talking about paper trading or actual trading
You of all people should know that
What is the difference in a real trade?
Money management is no less important in either case
The paper trading should be based on the same trading capital as one has in real life to make it more realistic
Paper trading can also assume a much larger capital ... but the money management rules still apply
The psychology should be no different whether real money is at stake or not
Friar Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
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sittingduck
Member
Username: sittingduck
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2004Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 09:47 pm: |
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"The psychology should be no different whether real money is at stake or not"
You obviously don't know much about people or psychology!
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hilarius
Member
Username: hilarius
Post Number: 3336
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 10:06 pm: |
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Hello Sitting Duck
Many people make the mistake of not reading what I say carefully
I did not say there IS no difference
In fact I am well aware there is often a big difference
What I said was that there SHOULD BE no difference
If you get money management right on paper and only risk controlled amounts, then doing the same in real trading OUGHT TO involve no greater emotion
If emotion is ruling one's trading that is probably a good sign that position sizes and risks are too large
By practising control of risk on paper that should lead in time to emotion free well tested risks in real trades
If not the paper testing has probably been insufficient
The paper testing should give experience in keeping positions sizes under control, so that there is no fear or greed involved. Position sizes which are too large are the cause of fear, and greed coupled with lack of patience are responsible for them being too large in the first place
A famous strategist once said the battle is won or lost before the first shot is fired
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
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captain_chaza
Member
Username: captain_chaza
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 02-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 04:45 pm: |
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Ahoy Sea-Detective Dougles
I don't look at the Options too much in the early developing days of Pink sheets
They often let you down with
#1 Liquidity and
#2 Wide Spreads
Either one can render them Un-Seaworthy
Maybe you can post the last three months of each Vertically orientated to see what I mean
I once heard old seaman's tale suggesting that the options pre-destined the share
What that old seaman forgot was that maybe the Spread rendered the options un-seaworthy?
Salute and Gods' speed
"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.
"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893
"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897
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captain_chaza
Member
Username: captain_chaza
Post Number: 2913
Registered: 02-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 06:28 pm: |
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Ahoy Dear SCO Friar Hilarius
An old sailor once told me
"Those Landlubbers Can't take the PRESSURE"
What he meant was "They can't take PRESSURE"
If you believe like I do
Sailing the Global Exchange is a Sport and not some Fuzzy Fundamentalist idea of Share Trading
Then
The more you put
The more the PRESSURE
The more is the Pleasure
and
The more is the HORROR!
Crikey!
All footballers Practice kicking for Goal
None can replicate their Practice performance on Match Day
WHY!
Pressure!
Golfers practice practice practice Putting for a Major
Nick Faldo beat Greg Norman in almost if not every Major
"Pressure is Everything"
Can this be replicated in Paper Trading?
I THINK NOT!
Salute and Gods' speed
"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.
"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893
"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897
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hilarius
Member
Username: hilarius
Post Number: 3348
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 06:39 pm: |
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Captain
An old sea salt such as yourself would realise there is no such thing as pressure (except for a once in a generation storm)
It's simply a matter of shortening sail while waiting for a fair following wind in which to hoist a spinnaker
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
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peter1
Member
Username: peter1
Post Number: 206
Registered: 12-2005Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 08:33 pm: |
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Dug: In reply to your question (totally off topic) on the difference in option premiums between CVIO and KALO.
The calculation of an option premium is too complex for me. In simple terms the premium comprises an intrinsic value and a time component. The intrinsic value of the option is only worth something when the underlying share is above the exercise price. The exercise price for CVIO is 0.15 (30 Nov 09) and as CVI is currently 0.245 the option has an int.value of 0.095. In comparison the exercise price of KALO is 0.20 (31 Jul 08) and KAL is currently 0.17 so there is no int value in the KALO options today.
The other major component of an option premium is a time value. Think of this as the time available for the share price to get above (or fall below) the exercise price. If the share price is below the exercise price at expiry then the options are worth nothing.
The CVIO option has a higher premium since it is in the money, but there is just under two years left before the option can be exercised. So there is plenty of time for something to go wrong.
The KALO option is lower since it is out of the money and there is only 7 months left for the price to get above the exercise price.
ETO traders don't buy the options to hold them but to profit from short term movements due to movements in the underlying share. I would trade CVIO like a share as there is stacks of time left. I would have to be very careful buying KALO as time is running out.
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2744
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 09:41 am: |
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thanks peter1 [and CC]
I can kind of follow but still think it's an abberation.
Re CVI it's 22 cents today and the CVIO's are 17 cents.
Now it may be 2009 til expiry but to exercise you have to pay a further 15cents=32 cents all up.
So if you were assuming that CVI had excellent prospects Long Term,why pay nearly 50% more buying an Option today instead of buying the actual share?
Now,of course,I realise that Options like this are for Fast Traders to get maximum Numbers by paying 17 cents instead of 22 and THEIR Expectation is that THEY aren't going to Exercise the Option[pay 15 cents more]but do THEY really think some Future Pilgrim is going to maintain paying such Premiums over the Actual All Up Share Price?
Some out there really think the "Mum'nDads" are real Dills,hey?Got pretty full of themselves being little clever Richards,oh I trade d'Market for a Living they swagger at BarBques!!
Anyhow,also noted your Spread comment between Bid and Ask,Charles.KALO exibits it a lot but there's still clowns Bidding 6 cents to Ask 7 cents with 20cents to exercise when the share is at 16.5.
Only times I went Options was when the Head/Actual share was say 80 cents and a 20cent Option was 60cents to buy.
Anyway,sorry to disrupt your Thread CC but all you were lining yourself up for was Abuse of the precious paper traders determined to Do the Right Thing before doling out the CASH.They probably also think that Prayer will Help if not Save them,CC,in the Market of MaMMon.
cheers.
Even 'til Jaded.
Dig for the sake of it.
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deanrosario
Member
Username: deanrosario
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 11-2002Rating: 
Votes: 2
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