The Novice, the Expert and the Expert Shark

Chart Forum » Trading - Psychology » The Novice, the Expert and the Expert Shark

«« Previous Next »»

Thread Start New Thread
Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post

Author

Message

ready

Member

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Friday, August 04, 2006 - 11:48 pm:

Hi Everyone

I'd like to say a little about what I believe is the psychology of the Novice Trader and the Expert Shark. Novice Traders thirst for knowledge. They want it now and they want it to work now.

They go looking for the Expert who will provide them with the knowledge and the means to be successful in the markets.

Then there is the psychology of the Expert Shark. The Expert Shark understands the psychology of the Novice Trader. The Expert Shark seeks to give Novice Traders what they desire and to give it to them now.

Now not all Experts are sharks in disguise.There are some who provide a genuine service at an appropriate price. Unfortunately, its the Novice who has to pick the Expert from the Expert Shark.

The sad part about Novice Traders is that not only do they have to contend with a market that seems to want to destroy them at every turn, at the same time, they have Experts popping up, prepared to give them what they want NOW!

My philosophy. Always beware of the Expert. If there asking for big bucks. You've probably got a shark circling.

Cheers

Ready

spider

Member

Post Number: 2461
Registered: 10-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 04:36 pm:

Hi ready,
I enjoyed reading your post.
Could you please let us know what "big bucks" equates to?

What prompted you to write this post; have you been bitten by one of these 'sharks"?

spider.

mosaic1996

Member

Post Number: 1349
Registered: 01-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 05:09 pm:

Spider,

If I needed coaching, then I would want to be coached by a successful trader. Now, my definition of a successful trader is someone who has outperformed the market by a significant margin over a time period of several years.

It follows that this successful trader should not need the money from coaching and hence they must be doing it for more altruistic reasons. If they do need the money, then they clearly have not met my successful trader criteria above.

However, I would put a value of $30 to $40 per hour on such coaching, or perhaps a percentage of profits whilst under instruction.

I would be very sceptical of anyone asking for thousands of dollars for such a service.

Cheers,
Mosaic

msparks

Member

Post Number: 625
Registered: 10-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 06:34 pm:

A "reasonable rate of return" eh Mosaic

I think i prefer the "share of the profits choice while under tuition".

OK, Spider,let the selections rip, and i will send you 10% of the profits, and you pay the loss's OK.

I think by the time someone realises they need instruction , they have already been down the advisers & underperforming managed funds road, the full service expensive churning broker path, and either lost half their money or have underperformed the market for a few years while getting it all together.

How ya gunna get someone like that to trust a coach ?

The "professional sharks" eat you before you realise, all you have left is sitting above where your shoulders used to be.

Helping people PROPERLY, is like handing over the business to the apprentice.

Good luck Spider, i am sure your intentions are to help people, and your posts have been a help to many i am sure.

spider

Member

Post Number: 2464
Registered: 10-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 07:15 pm:

As I said on another thread, I think this topic deserves a good airing. I will start another thread dedicated to the question: Where does the concept of one on one coaching fit with your ideas of learning how to trade.?

All contributions are welcome.

Going out for dinner; catch you later.
spider.

smallworld

Member

Post Number: 467
Registered: 01-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 12:15 am:

>>If I needed coaching, then I would want to be coached by a successful trader.

thats fair enough.

>>It follows that this successful trader should not need the money from coaching and hence they must be doing it for more altruistic reasons. If they do need the money, then they clearly have not met my successful trader criteria above.

A large part of trading is about managing risks. And taking on coaching is just like a trade with no risk. it is adding a return or income with zero co-relation to the risk that you already are bearing. and this can only be a good thing and as it reduces your risk related to your overall income.

Its no different to those who has a full time job and trade successfully, and there are plenty of them. Do they need their money from their job? Who am I to judge that?

>>However, I would put a value of $30 to $40 per hour on such coaching, or perhaps a percentage of profits whilst under instruction.

A coach may give you coaching for $30 an hour. But he is worth a lot more than that if he's able work out a plan with you, raise your skill level, motivate you to lift you game, take your work ethics to another level, and ensure that you work your plan to success. When I read statements such as this, I really want to applaud Frank Lowey, the one who paid big bucks to hire Guus Hiddink. I am sure a lot of people told Lowey that he shouldnt pay more than 30 buck an hour for a coach, and thanks to his foresight, we are in the big league now.

(Message edited by smallworld on August 06, 2006)

smallworld

Member

Post Number: 468
Registered: 01-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 12:39 am:

What's people's idea of a coach?
Is he Captain jack Sparrow - take all they can and give nothing back?
Is someone that is prepared to share your risks? - i will send you 10% of the profits, and you pay the loss's OK.
Is he just a salesman?
Is he someone that is responsible for your trade - so you can hand your business over to him?
Or someone that is generous enough to share his experience on a forum like this is just as good as a coach?

ready

Member

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 07:17 pm:

Spider

Being invited to attend a day seminar for over a $1,000 to me, cannot be justified. Its just my opinion Spider and maybe there are many who would disagree with me.

Fortunately, I've managed to avoid such events but I've not as yet met anyone who has suddenly become a successful trader following their attendance.

I started this thread in the hope that it would prompt a little thought and maybe discussion to help people new to the trading environment to think carefully before being tempted to part with their hard earned cash.

This is not to say that there are not good educators out there and that paying to gain knowledge from them could not be justified. In fact, a mentor or coach would probably be a more sensible path to go down rather than paying for a high powered performance from a guru.

I just think that trading is very much a personal quest and that much of the information needed to succeed needs to be gained over many months and years of study,research and practise. It would be unwise in my opinion for people to think that by paying large amounts of money for education, that suddenly they will be able to trade for a living.

ready

tryhay

Member

Post Number: 241
Registered: 09-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 07:53 am:

Hi Ready et al,

My suggestion (FWIW) for new/budding traders is to become a member of the Australian Technical Analysts Association and consider attend the ATAA conference in Melbourne at the beginning of October 2006. It will cost you <$250 per day (~<$30/hour) to hear a smorgusboard of speakers, (successful traders/gurus) so that you might find a trading style/approach that feels right to you. ATAA have lots of literature/videos exploring various trading topics available for free/small charge that will fill those idle personal moments. Plus you have the opportunity to talk to other traders who are facing the same issues you are - a useful networking experience.

If you then decide to fork out more money rather than continue with private study then at least you have a benchmark of what is available in the "coaching market" to choose from. I think the personal study route is better than handing over wads of money to a market coach/guru ~ because it is your money and I believe you need to maintain ownership/responsibility for your money's stewardship.

Disclosure: I became an ATAA member earlier this year and can not complain about the organisation or the meetings I have attended so far - and more importantly am not being paid to post this comment!

Colin I'm not sure how this ATAA comment fits within the forum rules - but I can't see how discussing a professional share association is at odds with the interests of this website.

Mark

smallworld

Member

Post Number: 469
Registered: 01-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 03:16 pm:

I'm not sure this is the right thread to discuss about coaching anymore. It seems that most of the negative comments are about seminars or courses or black box that sell for thousands of dollars - basically scams. So I think I'll save my comments until Spider starts a new thread.

mosaic1996

Member

Post Number: 1352
Registered: 01-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 06:11 pm:

Smallworld,

My position is that a successful trader should not need the money, hence another income stream isn't required, and even at $100 or $200 an hour would not be worth the effort.

Hence, my conclusion that the motivation must be of a more altruistic reasons, for example, a desire to help others.

Your Gus/Lowey/Soccer raises several interesting questions.

Firstly, in my opinion your example strongly supports my position. Specifically, Frank Lowey doesn't need money, I suspect that he is being paid a pittance for his involvement, and I strongly suspect that he would have a negative cashflow (donations?) from his involvement in Soccer Australia. I would call Frank Lowey the coach (driving force behind Oz soccer success), and that Gus is a resource (like IC forum, textbooks, etc) to be employed in our example. Gus is dispensible, Frank is not in my opinion.

Secondly, if you don't accept my analogy, I would point out that Gus is a professional coach with an outstanding track record. Do you think Frank would have hired Gus if he hadn't demonstrated his credentials. More importantly, we are talking about entry level coaching, and at this level in your sports analogy, it usually costs the coach money to fulfil the role of coach. Typically their child play in the team that they are coaching. In the trading world, these entry level traders usually have a very limited bankroll, and can ill afford to pay big dollars for personal coaching.

There are plenty of people on IC Forum that are willing to provide the same service for free either in the open forum or via private e-mails.

Finally, whilst an exceptional trader may make a really hopeless coach, does an exceptional coach have to be an exceptional trader. Probably not, but I suspect that it would help. Employing a personal coach with a proven track record of out-performance helps to eliminate the sharks (well meaning or otherwise).

Cheers,
Mosaic

ready

Member

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, August 07, 2006 - 06:37 am:

Hi everyone

I believe some really interesting points have been made above.

I am a little on the new side to posting and realize that I have abandoned this, my original thread. I'm afraid I got a little distracted on another more controversial thread.

Mosaic

I agree with much of what you say and suspect that the need to be vigilant regarding Experts applies equally with Coaching. Your figure of $30 to $40 seems a little on the low side though to me. That is,if you manage to find a Coach who can make a real difference to your Trading. I think one of the ways to ascertain whether you are dealing with a real Expert or just an Expert Shark might be whether he/she demands money up front. I would have thought that a true Expert would be happy for you to sample some of their goods without the need for you to come up with big bucks before the coaching actually begins.

I have a bit more to say about this and a number of other generous contributions and shall address them a little later today.

Cheers

ready

mosaic1996

Member

Post Number: 1357
Registered: 01-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, August 07, 2006 - 09:15 am: