King Arthur's Round Table: Seeking the Holy Grail
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     deanrosario
Member
Username: deanrosario
Post Number: 928
Registered: 11-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 11:01 pm: | 
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Ah Rederob
As you would know from my rantings in the "General" section, violence, in general, and the barbarity of pugilism, in particular, is something I abhor.
I much prefer the noble art of rational (or, even the irrational) debate between two civilised and articulate opponents ...
You can decide if that's likely to occur in this joust!
Friends of mine in the Special Operations Group of the Victorian Police Force (a tough, yet, very fair group of guys) once advised me ...
"you only use your fists in a fight when your feet start hurting; and, even then, the only consistent winners in any physical confrontation are the ones who have run away!" 
As usual, I've digressed from the original topic of the thread!
Dean
"It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong." George Soros
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rederob
Member
Username: rederob
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 10-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
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the bell sounds for round 2 and neither contender rises from their corner
the crowd boos
and slow-hand-claps
the skimpily clad ones are ushered quickly back into the ring
and flaunting their message boards
calm is restored
then the chant goes out
and grows louder
"show us your TIPS"
"show us your TIPS"
"show us your TIPS"
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deanrosario
Member
Username: deanrosario
Post Number: 930
Registered: 11-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 11:46 pm: |
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Rederob
There's a huge football match on at 630 a.m. tomorrow morning - Liverpool v Juventus.
I have no emotional involvement, but, such a clash of titans in world football is a must see for any "true believer", notwithstanding the unusual timing.
Off to bed; enjoy the night on the LME.
Dean
"It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong." George Soros
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arthur_gibson
Member
Username: arthur_gibson
Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2005Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:11 am: |
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I have to admit, I am with Captain Chaza on this one. I have never met, or heard of a successful day trader and I've known heaps of unsuccessful ones. I think that day trading is an addiction, like gambling or alcohol or smoking cigarettes. I urge everyone NOT to do it and I have said that before on this forum in another thread.
I make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year out of it, but I am NOT a day trader in the usual sense of the word and I am lucky to start with a large capital base. COMMSEC let me trade almost for free and they give me Professional Trader and Web Iris for free; so my overheads are negligible. But like I say, I don’t “day trade”; I sort of “minute trade”. I am self taught and I don’t “short” or use puts and calls or stops or use any of the usual paraphernalia associated with day trading.
Sure deanrosariao and a few others might have learned how to do it correctly, but generally speaking, I agree with The Captain: day trading is a fool’s game and people should no more try it than they should try heroin.
Arthur Gibson
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heyyou
Member
Username: heyyou
Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:32 am: |
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From - http://www.sec.gov/answers/daytrading.htm
Day Trading
Day traders rapidly buy and sell stocks throughout the day in the hope that their stocks will continue climbing or falling in value for the seconds to minutes they own the stock, allowing them to lock in quick profits. Day trading is extremely risky and can result in substantial financial losses in a very short period of time. If you are a day trader, or are thinking about day trading, read our publication, Day Trading: Your Dollars at Risk. We also have warnings and tips about online trading and day trading.
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deanrosario
Member
Username: deanrosario
Post Number: 931
Registered: 11-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:57 am: |
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Arthur, I was going to try to listen and learn from you, and then you go and say something like ...
But like I say, I don’t “day trade”; I sort of “minute trade”. I am self taught and I don’t “short” or use puts and calls or stops or use any of the usual paraphernalia associated with day trading.
Can someone please explain this concept of "minute trading not being daytrading"?
Unfortunately, my simple brain cannot comprehend such a deeply complex philosophy.
From my experience, the only way daytrading can be successful is with:
1. LEVERAGE
2. Insignificant transaction & other administration fees
3. A system that allows at least one trade every day - which means taking a short position too!
4. A system that has a high win probability
5. An instrument that is liquid and moves a bit
Of course you and CC will be unsuccessful at daytrading - you don't take the proper tools to do the job!
CC seems to trade some of the most illiquid stocks; and I know for sure you don't use leverage or take short positions (I'm pretty sure CC doesn't either).
Anyone would be crazy to attempt to daytrade with an incomplete or, worse, incorrect set of tools.
Dean
PS: Nearly forgot the most important point for successful daytrading ...
6. Ditch your ego before you enter a trade. Your ego and the need to be right will kill you.
Now, I wonder why some people are unsuccessful at daytrading?? 
"It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong." George Soros
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suemac
Member
Username: suemac
Post Number: 307
Registered: 01-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
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Ah Red Robbing One, You are a cunning linguist! Just love your verbal joustings!
Susan
Behold the turtle; he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out!
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peterloh
Member
Username: peterloh
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 03-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:27 am: |
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Mr Gibson,
Like you and the Captain I find day trading not a easy thing to do.The cost is high and not many succeed on it. Dean has been around for some time, and I know he mainly day trade, I suppose he is one of those rare ones.
I also use a fairly large capital base.My system is different from yours in that I do use fundamentals and a thematic approach not unlike those at AMP Capital.However I also brand in with value investing and Weinstein "stages of share rise and decline" approach.I trade longer term firstly because I believe when a company does well it will continue for some time.Moreover our government do give incentives to a tax discount for investment held over a year.Resource and energy companies which depend on prices are therefore more volatile and therefore not as suitable to my type of trading.Because as an individual my capital is relatively small compare to fund managers,I tend not to invest in too many shares.However when I pick a successful I will ride the trend most of the way not unlike those of Snifter. The only difference from him as I read his post in the past is that he ignores the fundamental as being too time consuming.Using this method I find that the returns are hugh and the losses negligible.I tend not to diversify as much because I can enter and exit very quickly when things do not work according to plan.
When analysing price movement I try to understand the reasons behind it.So I use charts, it is only one of my tools of trade. For me, fundamentals,psychology,money management and charts are being used when making an entry and exit.
Best Wishes
-------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Please note that comments made in this column is mainly for the interpretation of charts in technical analysis. It is not made in my professional capacity and should not be taken as advice.In my professional capacity I am only allowed to give advice on certain managed funds authorised by my license dealer.Any share discuss is for general interest and should not be relied on to make an investment decision.It is likely that I may own the shares that we discussed as a trade or as an investment. Please consult your stock broker or financial adviser in regard to your personal situation.
The views expressed here contain information derived from public available sources that has not been independently verified.No representation or warranty is made as to the accuracy, completeness or reliability of the information.Any forward looking information in this representation has been prepared on the basis of a number of assumptions which may prove to be incorrect.It should not be relied upon as a recommendation or forecast by the writer.
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thommo78
Member
Username: thommo78
Post Number: 75
Registered: 05-2005Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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arthur time to put the bell away?
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arthur_gibson
Member
Username: arthur_gibson
Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2005Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
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No. The bell has been rung and it stays rung. I think that we have seen the bottom of this. However it is possible that we will see a re-test. Shane Oliver wrote this to me yesterday when I told him that I had rung the bell:
"Investor sentiment measures in US certainly fell to levels normally associated with bottoms and mkt was very oversold. It will be interesting to see whether there is a re-test though."
I'm trying to get him to join this thread, but without success so far. I find his advice to be invaluable and I am sure that you would all benefit from being able to discuss with him.
I'll try to answer your other questions, but as I have said before, I'm real busy this week and I have little time to post. Sorry about that.
But I will say this: I am totally against using leverage to trade or buy shares. You should only borrow money for business purposes if you have a limited legal entity to protect your personal wealth from the downside risk. To trade shares on leverage against your personal wealth is, in my opinion just asking for trouble. Also, I do NOT recommend that people nearing retirement trade shares. The young people have time to recover, but when you get past fifty, like me, you may not have the time left to recover from a devastating loss. Please don't do it.
I never use leverage and I only trade with my own cash. I only trade "safe" (whatever that means) blue chip shares and I never touch any company that is worth less than half a billion. Ideally I want a few billion before I get involved.
I like the peterloh approach to all this and I work in rather the same way. You can all laugh at us and tell us that we're doing it the wrong way, but if we are banking the cash, we must be doing something right.
I'll write more when I get the chance. I want to explain how I buy before a stock reverses a decline, but it will take a lot of words and a few graphs to explain it.
(Message edited by arthur_gibson on October 19, 2005)
Arthur Gibson
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deanrosario
Member
Username: deanrosario
Post Number: 932
Registered: 11-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
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You've made a very very important point Arthur.
You are already very rich, so you only trade for fun; therefore, you should never ever use borrowed funds.
I, on the other hand, take trading very seriously.
This is my full-time job. I don't go and buy furniture or work in a cafe or go fishing, etc. during trading hours.
I have planned, and established my trading business in the same way I planned and established an optometry practice or would have planned and established a law office.
Like thousands of traders, who are employees, do in merchant banks and trading houses around the globe my job description is very simple - I have to concentrate and watch a screen of numbers for a living and then follow set rules to try to make money.
I don't try to "sex it up" by referring to it as sailing or hoisting a sail, etc.
I simply take a view and then I get out. I don't care why I am doing it I just do it.
Dean
"It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong." George Soros
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arthur_gibson
Member
Username: arthur_gibson
Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2005Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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