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     mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 417
Registered: 01-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 06:54 am: | 
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Colin,
I have started a thread 'recommended reading' as previously discussed.
http://www.incrediblecharts.com/userscripts/forums/show.plx?8/167528
Buny has accidentally put 2 entries (duplicates) in for Secrets of Candlestick charting. I had already made an entry for this book, so there are now 3 entries.
Could you please remove 2 of the entries as it will make the thread too long if there are multiple entries per book. I will leave the decision as to which entry to leave.
However, I would be inclined to leave mine as Bundy has given a critique on the book. The problem I see with giving a critique is that when people give a 5 star vote for a book with a negative critique, there is no way of knowing whether they are rating the book as excellent or the critique as spot on (i.e., the book is rubbish).
I had envisaged that the critique would be given by the stars given rather than one person's opinion.
I would move Bundy's entry to the Book Review thread.
Cheers,
Mosaic
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bundy
Member
Username: bundy
Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2003Rating: 
Votes: 1
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:58 am: |
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I think the idea of a list is meritorious - but in this case some more thought needs to be given to the execution if your aim is to create a truly helpful resource - rather than just a generic list of books.
Someone could put an absolutely crappy book in there - and because it is in the recommended reading section people naturally think it has some sort of imprimatur or widespread endorsement - when in fact the only endorsement it has is a single person's opinion.
In the case of Loiuse's book, I think that the entry really gives no meaningful or helpful information about the book, the level of reader/trader targeted, etc. Also, I thought the commentary was not objective - using such language as "use them to profitably trade the markets" - which is more suited in a publicity spiel than in a supposedly factual entry.
Your suggestion of removing my post doesn't do anything to help anyone. It means that they get to read one person's take on a book - but if they want some genuine, earthy views or a qualitative or substantive commentary then they have to go hunt around to another section - for posts that they would not be aware even existed.
It might look neat and pretty to have a generic list of books - with the substance in another section - but If you really want help people - then I think there should be comprehensive comments that encompass a multiplicity of views and balance - not simply a list.
---
Bundy
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 418
Registered: 01-2003Rating: 
Votes: 1
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:24 am: |
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Bundy,
I agree with your comments. However this would require a substantial effort by someone to create the resource that you describe.
Are you volunteering to do the work necessary to coordinate and create it? Your efforts would be much appreciated by the rest of the forum, especially newcomers.
If mediocre books appear on the list, hopefully this mediocrity will be rewarded with a low average star rating.
As far as Secrets of C.... goes, I didn't find it all that enlightening, however, several senior forum members have refer this book to others.
On the description of the book - it is a marketing blurb that I borrowed - maybe I shouldn't have been so lazy.
Your posts received 5 stars from a couple of people - were they saying this is a good book, or were they saying they agreed with your assessment of the book? What if they disagree with with your assessment of the book?
Cheers,
Mosaic
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bundy
Member
Username: bundy
Post Number: 114
Registered: 03-2003Rating:
Votes: 4
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:57 am: |
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I don't know if what I suggested really would entail a lot of extra work.
I mean - why not just allow posts about books in the one section.
Then people only have to peruse the subject line to see what book the post is referring to - and can get a good cross-section of opinions - one-stop shopping, so to speak.
I'm also wary of using the star rating as a measure of support or endorsement of a book.
Why?
Firstly, it disadvantages people that get in second. For example, you got in first on Loiuse's book and had your say. I could have voted 1 - but that would not really have reflected my opinion or added any useful comments about the book, whereas I think I made some valid comments - certainly these could not be conveyed via the voting system.
Imagine how the balance would have been swayed if I had gotten in first - the flavour of the list and perception of the book would be completely different - from a positive bias to a negative bias. I don't think this "first in best dressed approach" has any merit.
Secondly, how many people vote?
I don't - because the only time I log on is to reply to a message - I am a voracious reader but infrequent poster.
Looking through the votes - they certainly are low in proportion to the number of participants in the forums.
And then, as you point out - how do you interpret the vote?
You may well intend people to vote in one particular manner - but we well know that people are incapable of following simple instructions - RTFM is the most common fix for most problems.
Finally, there is the original commentary itself. This is not intended as a criticism - but you now admit to simply using some marketing blurb - it was expedient.
But how helpful is that?
Its defeats the purpose of the list IMHO - whereas I contributed original comment - which at least had some objectivity - and to delete it would render the list a toothless tiger IMHO - a facade.
As I said, this is not intended at criticism - but highlights one of the problems of having one post per book - selectively posted on the basis of who gets in first.
---
Bundy
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 421
Registered: 01-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 09:10 am: |
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Bundy,
Let's leave it up to Colin to decide on his prefered approach.
Cheers,
Mosaic
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 422
Registered: 01-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:55 pm: |
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Colin,
Recommended reading is not an appropriate thread name. Could you change it to something along the lines of 'BOOK LIST'.
This could probably wait until it is completed and moved to the new area.
Cheers,
Mosaic
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i_claudius
Member
Username: i_claudius
Post Number: 831
Registered: 11-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:11 pm: |
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Hello Mosaic
What is wrong with "Recommended Reading" ?
Surely there would be no Unrecommended ones?
Don't be put off by funny old Bundy ... who actually makes a good point ... people should explain their recommendations and then others can read between the lines ... as it were ...
Claudius (loves nothing better than to curl up in bed with a good book, if nothing else is available)
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 423
Registered: 01-2003Rating:
Votes: 1
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:44 pm: |
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Hi Claudius,
I agree that several reviews of each book would be the ideal outcome.
Unfortunately I can't see it happening - people are just too busy. Hard enough to get them to vote.
The problem I see with a negative post is that people that think the book is worthwhile do not have a means of expressing their opinion, except to spend the time to write a critique, which as I have already stated IMO they do not have time to do.
Why the name change? If a book get a low star rating, it would be a stretch to call it a recommended text. Getting into semantics rather than substance - anything to keep Buny happy!
Cheers,
Mosaic
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bundy
Member
Username: bundy
Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2003Rating:
Votes: 1
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| | Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 10:43 pm: |
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mosaic,
You said......
"Why the name change? If a book get a low star rating, it would be a stretch to call it a recommended text. Getting into semantics rather than substance - anything to keep Buny happy!"
------------------------------------
I resent that cheap shot - it was totally uncalled for and unwarranted.
I spent not inconsiderable time and effort participating in the original exercise by posting a critique of Louise's book - whereas your "recommendation" was perfunctory and essentially quoted the publicity blurp.
In subsequent discussion I opined that your idea had merit - just that I foresaw some problems and perhaps some more thought needs to be given to it's implementation.
In this regard, I made a number of (acknowledged) constructive and valid comments in two messages in the current threat - clearly outlining these problems and making positive suggestions.
In other words, I made substantive comments and contributions to the debate and not once suggested anything as ephemeral as a name change.
To use a throw away line like "anything to keep Buny (sic) happy" is totally uncalled for.
---
Bundy
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colin_twiggs
Member
Username: colin_twiggs
Post Number: 782
Registered: 09-2002Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:08 am: |
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Mosaic
I can see what you are trying to achieve. Unfortunately the forum software is not ideal for this purpose. What we really need is an "Amazon" type list, where users can state their views and give a star rating. The stars are then collated into an overall ranking, while the reader can scroll through individual comments (sometimes only two or three lines).
Bundy has a point in that only one set of review comments establishes a bias.
The only way to achieve these objectives with the existing software is to:
(a) Set up a thread for each book;
(b) The first post in the thread should have no review -- merely a request to readers to "Please record your vote here";
(c) Comments can then be added in subsequent posts.
It is not a perfect solution. New readers may open a thread without being aware of the above. And then we have the dreaded Archiver which will archive old posts.
We have been discussing the addition of a Traders Library bookstore. I will check what book review software they have.
Colin
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 424
Registered: 01-2003Rating:
Votes: 1
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| | Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:10 am: |
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Bundy,
My suggestion to change the name was in response to your concerns as explained to Claudius.
I read your points and responded that I saw other problems that you don't - so be it, we disagree.
If you think it was a cheap shot, so be it. It wasn't meant that way.
Given that I am undertaking this exercise for the 'love of helping others' I would not describe my approach to this exercise as a whole as perfunctory, nor to the specific post in question. My approach to the post was certainly expedient, but by definition it was not done in a perfunctory manner.
Let's review the thread to date. So far
a) my post has 10 votes for an average of 2.5 stars.
b) your post has 9 votes for an average of 5 stars
Clearly the forum is giving this book a low rating. So I would contend that my approach will work fairly well - would you rush out and buy a 2.5 star book?
As I have stated before I believe there is a danger that the star rating for a negative review can be interpreted incorrectly. Some people may interpret the 5 star rating of your post as being an endorsement of the book, which I don't think is the intention of the voters (but you can't be absolutely sure).
As also previously stated, the problem with a negative review is that people can't express a positive opinion about a book via a simple vote. They would need to write a review. Do you think many would have the time to do so?
If you are keen to make a further positive contribution to the 'recommended reading' thread, could you post a review of the 'other sources' that cover candlestick charting that you refered to in your original post.
Cheers,
Mosaic
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mosaic1996
Member
Username: mosaic1996
Post Number: 425
Registered: 01-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:21 am: |
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Hi Colin,
I am not trying to duplicate Amazon. I'm looking at something very simple that can attract forum input. With the exception of Bundy's and Williamat's duplicate posting of books, it is developing exactly as planned.
I am working on the assumption that people that are going to vote for a book have read the book - a reasonable assumption for the vast majority of voters. If someone has read the book, it is unlikely that their vote is going to be influenced by the speil on the book. However, how do they cast a positive vote if the entry bags the book?
Cheers,
Mosaic
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bundy
Member
Username: bundy
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:49 am: |
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