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     dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 07-2005
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Votes: 0
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| | Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |  
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It's Raining.Dams,Lakes are Forming.
Phoslock has it's Biggest Sales in the Australian Summer.
It's CSIRO developed and it's chart shows a pattern that includes the Golden Cross 30/60.
"I hear WHAT you say,
BUT I SEE what you DO"
Zelman Cowan 1970 Canetoad!
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rig
Member
Username: rig
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0
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| | Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 04:50 pm: |
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Since this is a longterm thread with fundamentals allowed I have the following comments regarding phk:
As a wastewater process engineer I am aware of phoslock. It is similar to another product from virotec (VTI). Basically the stuff is the red mud waste product from bauxite production to aluminium. If you have been to Gladstone then you will know the huge red mud dam.
I would be wary of both products. We have trialled the VTI product. Whilst it is good at chemically removing phosphorus it is poor at removing Nitrogen - the key environmental driver for EPA licencing (especially for large coastal treatment plants as N is a limiting nutrient in the marine environment).
The biggest negative is the longterm cost of these products. At current prices both are expensive operationally compared to conventional biologal removal processes.
Further these products produce a large amount of sludge waste and stain the product water and treatment equipment red/brown. And, there are cheaper chemical removal products available for P removal such as alum.
I believe most of the sales will come from councils trialling the product or from councils looking for quick fix solutions to delay large CAPEX expenditure on new plants. The overall result is the product will likely become unpopular as its performance and costs become better known.
Im not sure but it looks like VTI has now delisted. Perhaps this is where PSK is headed?
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 07-2005
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Votes: 0
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| | Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 05:20 pm: |
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Excellent Rig,I'd never heard that Phoslock is similar to blasted Virotec!!
Virotec went to the London AIM exchange "exclusively"[was dual listed,then delisted here]I found out that Phoslock was the combination of some rare earth plus a commonly occuring mineral but didn't think it was a CSIRO invented Virotec clone,I have no chemistry etc background to actually identify what it really was.
This is what I reckon Forums are for,sharing the knowledge across the various categories of "pilgrims" and I will certainly follow up on this line of Inquiry you have opened to me,rig.
So got any Word on listed Companies active in Water Sector that may have some GO in them?Still reckon when we get a flood up here in Qld all this water restriction palaver/motivation will evaporate.Even Government will stop using the Water Scare for Money Raising.They'll be more onto raising Energy Prices,for our own good,acourse.
that's why I have 5/6 times more in DYE than the now PHKed PHK!
Thanks again for suggesting removal of my green tinged glasses!
regards.
"I hear WHAT you say,
BUT I SEE what you DO"
Zelman Cowan 1970 Canetoad!
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tryhay
Member
Username: tryhay
Post Number: 784
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Monday, October 29, 2007 - 03:58 pm: |
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Hi Guys,
Further to dug's notes in MRX thread (point with MRX dug is I believe they sold off their Uranium to DYL - so your conscious can be clear) I confirm some stuff relating to PHK.
I guess the ramp for Phoslock is particularly focused on phosporous removal ~ and I think it does a stirling job. Rig's advice on nitrogen being a bigger problem that phoslock don't address may well be true but I dont think they sprook for N removal so ...
Algae needs three thing to bloom: 1. Sunlight, 2. Nutrients ~ commonly some of Nitrogen & some 3.Phosporous. Ideally one should try and remove both nutrients in wastewater ~ the reason EPA heavy Nitrogen is it is supposed to be easier to remove (provided the plant is not too overloaded). Phosporous requires close process control (for biological removal) and traditional chemical removal (coagulation + polyelectrolyte) requires ball park dose rates and something to lock up the Phosporous when it is removed (that is where Phos lock is so good).
The EPA believes N removal is easier but with overloaded plants (eg SWC in Hawkesbury River ~ western Sydney) still can not get it right consistently: One is supposed to remove nitrogen by nitrifying and then denitrifying (with bugs) & if there is correct operation of the plant the nitrogen bubbles off into the atmosphere and unfortunately the phosporous "sinks" to the bottom of the pond (or receiving waters - and phoslock is supposed to lock it up here).
I guess the point is that Phoslock ain't gunna be lost and the long term chart I checked out last night showed it is respecting the suport and probably gunna keep heading NNE.
I digress, CNM green power was on this afternoons "Scope" (only for those with nuthin to do when you knick off from work early: I am more keen on this one dug until PHK's chart demostrated the bounce.
Trust everything else is going OK
Mark
You asked for it!
(Message edited by tryhay on October 29, 2007)
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rig
Member
Username: rig
Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Monday, October 29, 2007 - 09:44 pm: |
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I can only comment on companies benefiting from the "water crisis" that I have direct involvement with my line of work. These include design consultants, and engineering construction companies in the water/wastewater industry. A number of the engineering design companies are privately owned - of which I work for one.
The larger listed players have had a sterling run up already - but perhaps more to go as seen today. The bigger players are UGL (design, operations, management and construction), LEI (mainly construction), Abbey Group (construction and some design - I think maybe german owned now?). CDD has some exposure to water/environment too I believe. Perhaps there is more that Im not aware of?
Also, I concur with Tryhay.
Virotec were claiming benefits of N removal, whilst from what Tryhay says Phoslock are not.
Further, N is the driving factor for coastal treatment plants because N is a limiting nutrient in marine waters. It is the opposite for inland fresh water bodies where P is a limiting nutrient. Hence there are different EPA licences for plants discharging to freshwater water bodies. Run-off from agriculture over using fertilisers or high P discharge from a WWTP can stimulate algal growth in fresh water bodies such as lakes/rivers. Hence phoslock can come in handy here.
With focus shifting to 100% reuse of effluent for inland plants the higher P water can be considered beneficial as a "cheap" fertiliser alternative if used for agriculture irrigation - negotiated case specific EPA licences.
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2483
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:10 am: |
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So we've sorted this out?
ReReading rigs original post again,the points Negative[sends equipment red,not much good just a stop gap]refer SPECIFICALLY to VIROTEC Nitrogen[N] extracting.
Phoslock is for Phosphorous[P]and rig unfortunately compared,put PHK,in the same category as Virotec.
Right?
Have you rig[or tryhay]actually seen a large body of water treated with Phoslock?Can either of you confirm it DOESN'T have these equipment problems?
I've heard it's quite "Dusty",Blow away in a stiff breeze,too fine grained etc BUT they have put it into pellet form as an improvement.
I've also read it's Non Toxic,fit for human consumption which I'm sure Virotec wouldn't lay claim to as it's based on Bauxite Sludge.
Your point,rig,about inland dams and P,is interesting especially the bit about cheap irrigation fertilizer water but can you tell me about algae getting to toxicity levels for humans even live stock?Is this a reason to treat Algae[by removing P]or is it simply a matter for filtration?
Europe is a Market for Phoslock.The lakes,moats around Castles tourist trade,rig.Smelly Algae Infested Ponds,rig turn off the Tourists!
Anyway,is it crossing your mind rig to Buy some PHK?
It announces some actual Bulk Sales instead of demonstration deals in Europe and it'll be on it's way.
30cents,you'll shake your head in the future,I saw it but didn't do anything even with a spare 5 grand.Now it's THREE Times that!!
maybe,like could happen.
cheers.
"I hear WHAT you say,
BUT I SEE what you DO"
Zelman Cowan 1970 Canetoad!
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tryhay
Member
Username: tryhay
Post Number: 786
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 06:13 pm: |
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So we've sorted this out?
ReReading rigs original post again,the points Negative[sends equipment red,not much good just a stop gap]refer SPECIFICALLY to VIROTEC Nitrogen[N] extracting.
Phoslock is for Phosphorous[P]and rig unfortunately compared,put PHK,in the same category as Virotec.
Right?
dug FWIW I have answered your statements/questions in bold below
Right: you will recal dug I went to a conference (at tamworth) and the boffins from Phoslock were there ~ still have a sample of the product in the boot of the car. It seems to be based on bentonite clay (lots of charged locations on the clay surface to attract phosphate ions to them and so the colloid gets heavy (floculates) and sinks to the bottom of the waterbody I think the other product Vitriole?? is by product of aluminium manufactiure (whereas bentinite is mined ~ little bit more natural).
Have you rig[or tryhay]actually seen a large body of water treated with Phoslock?Can either of you confirm it DOESN'T have these equipment problems? No but the phoslock website has two videos that show the product works a treat ~ I think they are bit over the top (normally required to dose product on a daily basis rather than shock dose and forget (as the video suggests) but they represent the capability of the product without focus on money side!
I've heard it's quite "Dusty",Blow away in a stiff breeze,too fine grained etc BUT they have put it into pellet form as an improvement. I've also read it's Non Toxic,fit for human consumption which I'm sure Virotec wouldn't lay claim to as it's based on Bauxite Sludge. wonder is bentonite is natural product & as a kid you probably ate your share out the back yard in the mud pie bregaide
Your point,rig,about inland dams and P,is interesting especially the bit about cheap irrigation fertilizer water but can you tell me about algae getting to toxicity levels for humans even live stock?Is this a reason to treat Algae[by removing P]or is it simply a matter for filtration? dug it is more asthetic I suggest rather than based in fact: the main risk of algae blooms is the bad taste & odour they impart to the water (and the small risk of toxins poisoning water users). Two sydney harbours (capacity) in Warragamba dam means sydney siders will not be poisoned but may complain about the taste & smell of the drinking water
Europe is a Market for Phoslock.The lakes,moats around Castles tourist trade,rig.Smelly Algae Infested Ponds,rig turn off the Tourists! sounds right to mem dug - they have plenty of money to buy the phosL &
Anyway,is it crossing your mind rig to Buy some PHK?
It announces some actual Bulk Sales instead of demonstration deals in Europe and it'll be on it's way.
30cents,you'll shake your head in the future,I saw it but didn't do anything even with a spare 5 grand.Now it's THREE Times that!!
maybe,like could happen. dug I have attached the longer term chart which indicate to me that PHK aint going to 0c (no offence ment Rig)and I think I'll buy $7,000 when the resistance is broken (can not see that is going to be too long
cheers.
Am away from home and the Wi Fi connection is a bit slow so I will leave the short term analysis to you dug
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rig
Member
Username: rig
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 09:13 pm: |
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Tryhay,
Good luck with the PHK. I hope it makes you a fortune.
My comparison to the virotec product is that I understand that both products are basically the same - an inert clay product with high FRP reduction potential sourced as a by-product from aluminium plants i.e. red mud - until recently viewed as a troublesome waste product by the aluminium industry (hey what do they care if someone wants to remove it for them and flog it off).
I cant comment any further as I am not an expert on PHK. As stated, my experience was with the virotec product.
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rockon
Member
Username: rockon
Post Number: 225
Registered: 08-2003Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 05:38 am: |
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Morning All,
" until recently viewed as a troublesome waste product by the aluminium industry "
I've never even looked at this stock before so I can't offer any real opinion and I just may be repeating a
rumor I heard years ago, but isn't that exactly what they said about Fluoride before they found a use for it and ironically added it to our water supply? and could there be a market for whatever it is that they are trying to extract?
Cheers...... Sorry, my first attempt at changing colours:{
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2492
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 03:25 pm: |
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rig,
On Virotec and Phoslock being similar-
Two maybe more years ago,Virotec was being ramped["con like Boosted"]Buy Buy VTI was the Call by this blow in member.Multiple Treads in Short and Long Term were Opened exclusively about Virotec and how every one should Load Up on Virotec shares and this went on for months,pretty much til Virotec delisted here and went exclusively onto the London AIM stock exchange.
The upshot of all this was that some fascinating facts emerged about Virotec in the Negative.
a]The Aust Company was called Virotec International[VTI] but there was also a completely different Company[in the same game/industry]just called Virotec,who were much more "respectable" than VTI.
b] My memory was that VTI's bauxite "muck" was touted for curing LAND degredation,some toxic waste eating capabilities were touted.
c]But Most of All the Company Structure of VTI was at that time Really Suspect.Virotec[VTI] was exposed in The Financial Review as a sham,dodgy in it's actual company Management in the past and even a review by such as we of it's current Set-Up,if you had a cynical eye?well,VTI was based at Sanctuary Cove,Rig.You're a Brisbaner? Is that enough said or do you need the inhabitants of Sanctuary Cove denounced and defamed?
So I hope you see that when you drew a Comparison between VTI and PHK chemically,usefulness wise from your personal professional opinion?well it had to be checked out!
So you may be confusing Virotec with Virotec International.
If not,then maybe you're not experienced much in how shonky listed companies operate.It'd be no surprise to me that VTI is now touting as a WATER Cleaner,there's interest in such things so linking to water is "hotter" than land especially if you've got a DUD product that may "work" but wrecks/stains equipment while doing it!
Now Rig you're wrong to project that Phoslock has ANYTHING to Do with Bauxite Sludge,it doesn't.
You're wrong to project what happened to VTI's share price onto Phoslock as some one and the same Shonk.Phoslock's Management have shown NONE of the classic characteristics,concern charging ploys that I've seen in the run I've had from 20cents to 50cents and back again to Maybe Buy In Time again.
so I hope I'm not writing too confusedly for you.I have to try and get d'Gist of your's and Tryhay's jargon and I want to thank you again for bringing your professional engineering in the Water Industry View to my attention for considering.
Happy Trading.
"I hear WHAT you say,
BUT I SEE what you DO"
Zelman Cowan 1970 Canetoad!
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tryhay
Member
Username: tryhay
Post Number: 796
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 06:07 pm: |
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Hi guys,
dug I got a feeling your eyes started to glaze over (not to mention "nod off in the first paragraph of science jargon" ) with the above teckie stuff on PHK - I apologise, but you did ask the direct question and the answer is that PHK is a beauty product & perhaps ripper share to boot (not very scientific but the same sentiment).
I have looked at PHK short term and it does not look like a screaming buy just yet: wrong side of the 200_DMA, MACD & DMI -ve, and retracing towards the 12 month low ~ admittantly volume is down on the retracement but I don't want to buy in just yet (probably an opportunity for you to top up though).
I could woffle on about flouride rockon but I'll take the "nod off" hint ..(but I will say it [flouride] is good for you and you should drink more tap water and not that bottled s%^&*t)....
Daily chart:
(Message edited by tryhay on November 10, 2007)
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dug
Member
Username: dug
Post Number: 2557
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0
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| | Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:38 am: | | | |
