The mainstream churches long ago accepted the concept of evolution
Only the literalist (mainly American) fringe dwellers of Christianity deny the truths revealed by science
What is surprising is the extent that the Bible writers who lacked science understood the overall nature and purpose of creation and our place in it. They also had views of a vengeful God which was changed on the arrival of Christ and his teaching
"You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you to love one another" and elsewhere even to love our enemy
Thanks Ingot for printing what are acknowledged to be some of the finest parts of scripture dealing with creation and God's role in it
Those who follow their own rules are simply proposing that they are as good as, or better than, God
The results of that assumption are evident in some of the language used earlier in this thread
I know which God I prefer
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Hilarius wrote: Those who follow their own rules are simply proposing that they are as good as, or better than, God
I'd counsel you to review your belief in that statement. I assert that making up your own rules is entirely consistent with God's will. So is your attempt to impose your world view on others.
An analogy with physics is appropriate. You cannot break the laws of physics. Firing a bullet follows the laws of physics just the same whether it kills someone or not.
My view is that God's laws work the same way. They cannot be broken. Each action will have a consequence and we can do nothing to change that consequence.
The Christian crusades inevitably resulted in Muslim extremism. Christian missionaries inevitably destroyed the future of the uncivilized hordes. Western industrialisation inevitably damages the environment. It's all the same.
Just as physics laws can be exploited to destroy the earth. God's laws can be exploited for one person to destroy the lives of others.
It does not even matter whether this God we refer to exists or not. The laws of our existence and those of the universe will continue to apply without exception.
The miserable truth is that the ongoing cargo cult phenomenon that surrounds Jesus and the Bible is at best utterly futile. At worst it will destroy itself and all it touches. It is inevitable. Either way the consequences are the result of God's laws.
(Message edited by easymoney on October 25, 2007)
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
I don't see how you can say "There were no Christian crusades" like it or not the crusades were sponsored by the church and sanctioned by the pope. Just another example of the menace of religion.
See the following extract from Wikipedia.
"The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom.[1] The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the sacred "Holy Land" from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia."
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
philr, hilario won't tell it like this but you're talking Roman Catholic and he and ingot are Protestants. Along with the Evangelicals,Proddo's despise the Roman Catholics.See them as Idolotors or some danged thing and in their heart of hearts expect the Rapture to smote the Catholics as heretics. So even though the Great Schism was centuries ago,the "papists" are still the Enemy.Must be dismissed,taken out because otherwise they [d'prots] miss out on claiming historical connenctions back to Jesus who really existed,said to have built his Church on the ROCK,Peter the FIRST POPE. it goes on and on,philr.Try and let them wear themselves out,don't contribute to this Bible Class Fiasco.
cos phil,I can tell you a beauty of christian thought sophistry.
The Word they're coming up with now includes that- We are Positive towards the Jews.Christians never supported the pogroms,holocaust and certainly embrace the Jews as Decent etc just a bit misguided etc.
AND the clincher to their Argument of this Righteosness is of course in what the Bible says.
That God will descend from the Heavens when the Jew is CONVERTED. so you see,they have to keep at least some Jews alive so they can get Converted!!so the Rapture happens!! it's also a handy out from the redneck,neo nazi,evangelical views. it's all so sad,phil.Useless.Let d'Holy Joes go.
All Christians understand God's will. Crusaders doesn't understand God's will. Therefore Crusaders are not Christian.
All cats have 4 legs. Fluffy has 3 legs. Therefore fluffy is not a cat.
Can you spot the problem? Would you like to have another go at this argument?
Hilarius wrote: The laws of physics have nothing to do with the laws of moral conduct
Think harder. Your God allows his laws of moral conduct either be followed or not. My God's laws of moral conduct are unbreakable. Your God's laws are unknowable by mere mortals unless they read a particular book. My God's laws apply to every action of every person on every day and manifest themselves in the consequences, even if the people don't know what the laws are or whether they are breaking them.
Which sounds more like God's will to you?
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
Hilarius ... this is why I decided not to participate further - the decent and good things about the Christian Faith and the Christian Life are not being honoured or served well here.
You will not convert anyone through public debate - the ego is stronger than the spirit because of pride.
A man will not come humbly and remorsefully to God until he is ready, and that will only happen when he comes to the end of himself - when human ideas, efforts, plans ingenuity and so on are exhausted.
It is hard to tell someone who is on top of his world that he has a need.
But it is great to know that Dug is reading the Bible - even though he is just reading excerpts on this thread. Fantastic Dug ... read on!
One of the points lost on Philr and Easymoney is the difference between NOMINAL Christians (ie paper trading Christians) and SPIRITUAL Christians (ie live traders, who live their belief, not just spruik it).
True Christians will not harm another person. They pray for others, show kindness, love, promote peace, show tolerance and longsuffering. And they are glad to shine their light - not for and of themselves, but for the glory and exaltation of the God they love and trust.
This is the light - that Jesus came into the world to show people a better way, salvation, and true spiritual empowerment, and so much more.
Jimdene wants to have his question answered - I believe it has been, and so the thread should be at an end.
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
Ingot54 wrote: One of the points lost on Philr and Easymoney is the difference between NOMINAL Christians (ie paper trading Christians) and SPIRITUAL Christians (ie live traders, who live their belief, not just spruik it).
Do you understand how utterly condescending those words are?
I simply take exception to the poor logic and rhetoric that is spouted in God's name. Fancy declaring somebody not to be a "true Christian".
Something about not judging others comes to mind!
(Message edited by easymoney on October 25, 2007)
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
It bothers me not the slightest to identify a medieval crusading murderer as just that, and certainly not Christian
No modern mainstream Christian would accept the murderous actions of such medieval zealots as being in any way Christian
The Crusaders are useful only as straw man targets for those who have an axe to grind against Christianity, and as clear examples of what being a Christian does NOT mean.
Anyone who thinks Christians have a licence to kill has certainly not understood the teachings of Christ
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Easymoney ... how would you expect me to react to that statement?
Your words and those of Philr in the posts above stand as a stereotype of what you see a Christian to be. Unfortunately it is this idee fixee you have that determines that there can not be a meeting of the minds on this issue.
Yes there are such things as NOMINAL Christians ... those who "decide" to be a Christian. They can attend Church, the local church working bee, the quarterly meetings, help take up the offering, serve on the committees, usher people to their pews.
These are all "good" things to be doing, but they do not make a Christian. They just make a good person perhaps, or a nice person to have around the church.
A Christian is: "One in whom Christ lives."
This can only come about through a spiritual revelation that the person has need to be free of the condemnation of unrighteousness, remorseful of their previous wrong-doing (the degree of wrong-doing is not an issue - there are no shades of grey with God) and repentant.
A Christian recognises that one day they will indeed stand before a Holy God who will ask an account of them of the way they have spent their lives.
But I am sure this is not news to you. And I can not believe you would be ignorant of the difference between a NOMINAL Christian and the genuine loving and tolerant one.
It is this issue that has led many to criticise the Christian Church over the years. Nominal Christians do much "in the name of God" when God had nothing to do with it!
eg GWB said re: the Iraq invasion : "God is on our side."
Really?
Could I advance this idea to you: ... if God really were on the side of GWB, the Iraq war would have been over before it began.
(to be continued)
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
Easy money ... this (below) is Chapter 7 of the Gospel of St Matthew.
Jesus is NOT referring to non-believers ... he is talking about those who believe (in those days, fellow attendees at the local synagogue.)
To give you an idea of what Jesus is saying, think about his attitude towards the Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests of that religious time. They were certainly "religious" but he wanted them to see their hypocrisy - they had a form of godliness, but denied God's power.
Jesus singled them out because they were binding people up with legalism.
Easymoney ... you became indignant/offended because I said the point was lost on you and Philr, yet you do not seem to "get it" (unless you are being mischievous) that a real Christian leads a changed life - changed from the inside. A Christian realises from what he has been set free, and simply out of love, wishes others to experience that freedom too.
On the other hand, Nominal Christians are still bound by the "rules of the church" or the letter of the law. Yet Jesus taught us about Grace and Truth. Grace is God's mercy on the undeserving - He does "make allowances" for us - more than we realise.
I hope I have not sounded patronising or condescending. But I wanted to show you the subtle difference that makes a world of difference. And although you "take exception to the poor logic and rhetoric that is spouted in God's name" that is your position and your right.
For myself, I take exception at nothing - this is not my problem. My place is to try to shine a light ... that is all. The success or otherwise of that is out of my hands - the result will be a spiritual change, and that is none of my business.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:16 - "In the same way let your light shine in front of people. Then they will see the good that you do and praise your Father in heaven."
Anyway - I am not a Pastor or a Priest - probably in need of one - maybe I should return to church. It's been a long time since I went to one.
This is chapter 7 of Matthew ... and probably says more that I ever could. I do love the words of Jesus - He had such brilliant insight - always touches me.
"Stop judging so that you will not be judged.
2 Otherwise, you will be judged by the same standard you use to judge others. The standards you use for others will be applied to you.
3 So why do you see the piece of sawdust in another believer's eye and not notice the wooden beam in your own eye?
4 How can you say to another believer, 'Let me take the piece of sawdust out of your eye,' when you have a beam in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye. Then you will see clearly to remove the piece of sawdust from another believer's eye.
6 "Don't give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls to pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them and then tear you to pieces.
7 "Ask, and you will receive. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened for you.
8 Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find, and for the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 "If your child asks you for bread, would any of you give him a stone?
10 Or if your child asks for a fish, would you give him a snake?
11 Even though you're evil, you know how to give good gifts to your children. So how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?
12 "Always do for other people everything you want them to do for you. That is the meaning of Moses' Teachings and the Prophets.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate because the gate and road that lead to destruction are wide. Many enter through the wide gate.
14 But the narrow gate and the road that lead to life are full of trouble. Only a few people find the narrow gate.
15 "Beware of false prophets. They come to you disguised as sheep, but in their hearts they are vicious wolves.
16 You will know them by what they produce. "People don't pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles, do they?
17 In the same way every good tree produces good fruit, but a rotten tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit.
19 Any tree that fails to produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into a fire.
20 So you will know them by what they produce.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?'
23 Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'
24 "Therefore, everyone who hears what I say and obeys it will be like a wise person who built a house on rock.
25 Rain poured, and floods came. Winds blew and beat against that house. But it did not collapse, because its foundation was on rock.
26 "Everyone who hears what I say but doesn't obey it will be like a foolish person who built a house on sand.
27 Rain poured, and floods came. Winds blew and struck that house. It collapsed, and the result was a total disaster."
28 When Jesus finished this speech, the crowds were amazed at his teachings. 29 Unlike their scribes, he taught them with authority.
How brilliant was that? The Bible is much pooh-poohed, yet how many people have ever read it?
How many know where to find these great things?
I can tell you, that if you were to read the Gospel according to John, you would truly gain an insight into true Christianity. You can really feel the love of God for people - real love and real people in there. Not the ego of Ingot54, or how much spruiking Ingot54 can do.
Unfortunately I feel that a lot of my response to your post has been egotistical, and that is not good - it was what I wanted you to know, and that is not necessarily what God wanted you to know.
Please accept my apologies if I have overdone it here. I did not intend to offend you - only offer an explanation of where I am coming from.
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
Great to wake for morning prayers and find we have a Bible Study ready to read
The views of non-believers on the quoted writings interest me enormously
If more non believers attended Bible Studies the world might be a better place
More Christians would have to find out what it is they really believe and would discover that their every action and word is a good or bad advertisement for Christ
As Ingot so perceptively notes the true Christian is living with Christ in them and so Christ rather than the person is what is then observed
On that definition no Christian is a true Christian and we all fall short of the goal ... some more than others
If we are all on the same road ... and I believe we are ... we should all talk to each more, not less
There are so many side roads which are not worth the trouble. Finding the right one can be a shared experience.
Ingot you have said so many things that are worthwhile ... I think you should be a pastor ... then again in your words alone in this thread you have shown that you already are one
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
There are quite a few things I could say in response, but I'll limit it to the following...
The statement: conceptions of Christianity and what it means to be Christian have taken many vastly contradictory forms over the centuries.
The question: whether you would recognise the word of God if the paradigm expressed is unfamiliar to you.
The hypothesis: God's laws are absolute and deterministic. It is no more possible to break God's laws than it is to break Newton's laws of motion. Nothing can ever happen that is contrary to God's will. That is the immutable law.
The evidence: human history including the words of the Bible.
The challenge: to determine whether your faith is strong enough to enable you to consider an alternative paradigm without resorting to dogma.
The example: thou shalt not kill - this is almost universally interpreted as an instruction from God. By my hypothesis it is not. It is a sage observation that under God's laws unjust actions have natural consequences and that no good every came from killing.
I challenge you to find anything in the Bible contrary to my hypothesis.
If you can then we'll both be better for the exchange. That, gentlemen, is the power of science!
(Message edited by easymoney on October 26, 2007)
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
Yes I know I shouldn't have bothered but Hilarius set a good trap with his statement "There were no Christian crusades" and I just could not help myself from biting the worm.
I agree with you discussing issues with people that do not accept logic becomes very difficult Instead they try to fudge over actual fact with superfluous questions such as in Hilarius's post to EasyMoney
"Easy Money In your opinion was there a moment when time began? If so was it a spontaneous self generating event? Or was there some trigger for it? Also in your view has the matter which constitutes the universe existed eternally, or only from a particular moment in time?"
How the heck is Easymoney going to know the answers to these questions I'm sure he wasn't there at the time to observe the events. And what his opinion of them is does not really matter. All Easymoney can rely on is what science has discovered to date. So its really just another clever attempt by H. to cloud the issues.
While Ingot54's sprouting of the bible at every opportunity does become annoying I think what initially irked me most about this thread and the reason I entered into it is Hilarius's attitude.
He just does not seem to understand how he offends people. Asserting that because you do not follow his particular way of life you lead a "barren and wasted life" If he really wanted to show love. He would accept people as they are.
But then again how would people like me and easymoney who are leading a barren wasted lives know.
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
Well I don't its none of your business. Obviously if someone is about to fall off a cliff and kill themselves you would want to help save their life that is only common sense. As far as other things they do in life its up to them and called free will and should not be up to you to interfere.
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
Hilarius, Bush, like the crusaders, is a Christian. But does he not invade? Like the crusaders? Oh, I forgot. He can not be a Christian, like they were not Christians either.
When we fail to win the peace we end up selecting what appears to be the lesser of two evils
If police could cross international borders in sufficient strength to settle disputes as easily as they enter private houses to settle domestic disputes we would have a peace keeping system not a war system
Unfortunately the United Nations is less competent dealing with many international disputes than the average cop on the beat
The League of Nations was founded in hope and ended in tears
The United Nations has been sidelined due to its congenital incapacity to act with a united will against injustice
There is insufficient political will to police international disputes ... just as there was no political will to stop the rise of Hitler until it was too late
As to the Christianity of leaders ... which leader would go to the Cross for his people?
No leader is as perfect as Christ
None of us is as perfect as Christ
Christianity is an ideal so strong that many people recoil from its full implementation
All that is necessary for the success of evil is for good men to see it and do nothing
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Thank you for the way in which you are conducting this often difficult (contentious) issue.
I have known all along how quoting of the Bible is annoying, but please believe that I am not doing so out of any desire to stir the pot, or be seen as self-righteous.
I am no authority on goodness, nor do I have any better claims to spiritual enlightenment than anyone else. I am sharing a viewpoint, just as you are too, and it is heartening to engage in civilised discussion, even if a teeny bit of repartee creeps in occasionally.
We have to divorce the concept from our minds, of an angry God, sitting on a throne with a great golden wand, dictating who should live happily and who should be otherwise.
I don't believe it is like that.
Do you enjoy a good joke? So does God ... how do I know? Because His Word says I am made in His image. God does laugh, and He feels dismay, and sadness.
But equally He rejoices and enjoys the company of His people who remember Him. How happy He is when just ONE person turns from following crooked ways, and resolves to discover God's plan for his life and follow that.
The Bible records that "Jesus wept." (Remember His friend Lazarus who died? Who He raised from the dead? ... another story)
So I put it to you, that if we are made in God's image, He should understand the internal workings of our minds, emotions, hearts, souls, bodies and so on. He understands the ruffles we have in relationships, the earthy jokes guys tell when they get together over a beer, the effects of MJ on our moods ... etc.
Does He condemn any of the above? No, not at all. He understands ... He (in the bodily form of Jesus) became a man and lived amongst us. He knows full well the pressures we face, the issues that trouble us, the joys of seeing someone's newborn, and the sadness at someone's passing.
This is why I am attracted to the love of God - it is unconditional, uncondemning, tolerant and kind, merciful and longsuffering towards me.
Does this in some way restrict me in the things I want to do or pursue as I seek to max out my enjoyment of life?
No - not at all. In fact it does enhance my quality of life in every respect.
I am not a religious person - I have no time for religion whatsoever ... and nor did Jesus. Am I a Christian? I certainly am trying to follow what Christ taught, though frequently I fall short of achieving those teachings. I won't give up though because of the enrichment that comes through following the simple truths of doing good, paying my debts, showing compassion, lending a hand ... in fact all of the things you and others are doing do too I imagine.
But this in itself is not enough. Being good still does not cut it. I know that sounds unfair ... surely God is asking too much?
Well, I can argue, discuss, debate, write and pray all I like, but I on my own can never change the way another person feels about these issues.
Then what can?
Two things ... the Word of God as recorded in the Holy Scriptures (there's an aulde worlde expression that survived) and ...
... by searching out the Truth for yourself.
It is not too difficult to simply go to a quiet place, and in ordinary everyday language ask God (if He is there) to show you the Truth, to bring things to pass to demonstrate spiritually to you, that these things actually are so.
That's what I mean by "searching" - just seeking ... and as He promised, you will "find."
Hebrews : 1-6
1 Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.
2 God accepted our ancestors because of their faith.
3 Faith convinces us that God created the world through his word. This means what can be seen was made by something that could not be seen ...
...6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
(to be continued)}
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
"Blessed" is a word we use to describe a state of being when everything is not just "cruisy" but exceptionally ideal in every area of our lives.
Jimdene posed the question: "Why haven't I been shown the light?"
"Light" comes to us all the time Jim. The Bible is FULL of light, yet for some reason people either dismiss it (the Bible), or feel threatened by it, or even repulsed.
I am at a loss as to how something so helpful to humans can be threatening at the same time. It seems that if you regards yourself as intellectually enlightened, then there is no need for the simple basic teachings of the Bible.
I would have thought that the more intellectually enlightened ones would take an opposite view - that here indeed is one answer to the problems of the world ... to do unto others, to refrain from harmful pursuit.
So often the intellect clashes with the spiritual when it should be possible for the two to be in harmony.
But there is sometimes a stereotype of "weakness" (ie "religion is just a crutch for the feeble-minded") seen in people who seek higher spiritual values.
And there is an element of pride (ego) associated (again a stereotype I acknowledge) with having an intellectual (academic) ability.
Regardless, I think Jim will find there is nothing wrong with following this teaching from the Old Testament:
Psalm 1:1
1 Blessed is the person who does not follow the advice of wicked people, take the path of sinners, or join the company of mockers.
2 Rather, he delights in the teachings of the LORD and reflects on his teachings day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted beside streams- a tree that produces fruit in season and whose leaves do not wither. He succeeds in everything he does.
4 Wicked people are not like that. Instead, they are like husks that the wind blows away.
5 That is why wicked people will not be able to stand in the judgment and sinners will not be able to stand where righteous people gather.
6 The LORD knows the way of righteous people, but the way of wicked people will end.
...and this one from the New Testament - known as "The Sermon on the Mount"
Matthew 5: 1-16
1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up a mountain and sat down. His disciples came to him,
2 and he began to teach them:
3 "Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.
4 Blessed are those who mourn. They will be comforted.
5 Blessed are those who are gentle. They will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for God's approval. They will be satisfied.
7 Blessed are those who show mercy. They will be treated mercifully.
8 Blessed are those whose thoughts are pure. They will see God.
9 Blessed are those who make peace. They will be called God's children.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for doing what God approves of. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.
11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, lie, and say all kinds of evil things about you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad because you have a great reward in heaven! The prophets who lived before you were persecuted in these ways.
13 "You are salt for the earth. But if salt loses its taste, how will it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled on by people.
14 "You are light for the world. A city cannot be hidden when it is located on a hill.
15 No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket. Instead, everyone who lights a lamp puts it on a lamp stand. Then its light shines on everyone in the house.
16 In the same way let your light shine in front of people. Then they will see the good that you do and praise your Father in heaven.
Isn't that an amazing piece of scripture?
Nothing in that to be threatened by, or feel weakness about.
Au contraire ... I see it as light and strength. And these are qualities we are all capable of developing further. There are no rules against such qualities.
Thanks for reading this far - I apologise to you Philr - but I have nothing else to offer such a discussion. The topic is: "Why haven't I been shown the Light?"
And the "Light" Jimdene alluded to was clearly a spiritual light.
For that I have to go back to the "user manual" provided by the manufacturer. My personal human reasoning falls far short of a satisfactory response on its own.
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
Ok enough is enough, if anyone has forgotten this is an IC share trading charting program software package not the "CHURCH OF DEBATE".forum who honestly try to out do each other by their intelligence, religion,politics and greed is the biggest leader to arguments and war however the religious will never accept that they are responsible because they are peace loving yet they want the power of people because of their beliefs and blah, blah blah blah etc Wake up everyone we are human and gifted by intelligence and because of this we are the superior, someone said to me the other day that us humans can only fell pain huh what a joke a Lizard even though many species lose their tails still feel pain, even an ant losing a legs feels pain but we all accept and take it for granted that they don't. Have you ever thought they may have a GOD too. I have a cockatoo and amazed that this bird can say in English at the right time and also do in action yet his brain wouldn't be any bigger that your thumb nail, he can fly he can walk on the earth and swim yet we have to build a how lot of mechanics to match him so how good are we! The above may not make a lot of sense to you and you may wonder where I'm going with all this life is really simple we live it feel it we love it we hate it we die with it. Have any of you though who is going to win at at the end?!!! I can answer this no one will. The old Captain made a good statement but you told him in a polite way to buzz of. My where is gods will here?! Hilarius you have a chip on your shoulder and I know it hasn't been easy for you but don't try to convert people here. If you are a real believer then you would accept people as they are regardless whether they are non believes or not that is gods will. If you wish to continue then I would suggest to open your own website don't abuse IC for your own need and frustrations. I haven't seen for a long time now anything on share trading are you doing so well or very poorly. Or is it because of......................this @##&*@@ And yes when I first joined IC forum I was very excited the real novice and everyone was sharing there knowledge Oh it was great mmmm wonder what happened, John Bedson joined and many others from Mars did too then things started to heat up, Bundy a great option trader "where is he" sooo sad and you and your religion. I will always stay with IC and Colin I've learnt a lot over this last 3 years and now doing extremely well but not listening to this shit anymore. Take care all and God Bless
You might like to take note that this thread was not started by me, or Ingot or Eternalsphere
It was started by a non-believer
I consider that to be a good thing. No one is obliged to visit the General section, but I see only benefit in a non-trading section where we can get to know each other on another level
To me the General Forum is a plus not a minus. It enhances the Forum by making the world views of people here known.
That you were able to offer your worldview is just great as far as I am concerned
Neither "side" in the discussion should seek to silence the other
We are all on a journey of discovery in this all too short life
Whether we choose to believe in a deity or not is indeed a personal choice
My perspective is embodied in the song "You raise me up ... you make me more than I can be"
There has been much discussion of logic
Do you judge an RSL by its better members or its worse ones?
Do you judge a school by its better teachers or its worse ones?
Do you judge a Church by its better representatives or its worse ones?
The greatest mistake in logic is to generalise from the particular (this statement excepted)
As to trading you can see paper selections I have made in a research project running until December in another thread
I am out of the market at present, conserving cash for future bargains, but trading indexes with mixed but improving success
I have with several IC colleagues produced a list of 60 high earnings growth stocks which we share with each other and trade using a combination of FA and TA
Four examples which I traded successfully from the list were ABY, CSM, EQN and PWK
A family member whose shares I manage has held BHP and WPL for several years, and has had no losses with other shares I selected
I am blessed with an ability to select fairly well but have many times said I am not the world's best trader
I am here to learn, about trading and about life
I am not as hostile to non-believers as they appear to be to me, but c'est la vie
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Ingot54 wrote: We have to divorce the concept from our minds, of an angry God, sitting on a throne with a great golden wand, dictating who should live happily and who should be otherwise.
I refer you to my hypothesis above. I again challenge anybody to find anything contrary to my hypothesis in the Bible. Your excerpts above are strongly supportive.
Did you ever notice that none of the "They will..." statements say who is going to make the prophecy come true? My hypothesis is that each of these is merely a statement of cause and effect.
None of them say that some arbitrary decision maker will notice the good deeds and consciously reward them. That is simply a cargo cult mentality created by a primitive, impressionable and superstitious people. That cargo cult became organised religion.
By the way, I've got a magic stick I found in the forest. When I lay it on the ground in just the right way according to God's will, I make huge profits on the futures market.
(Message edited by easymoney on October 27, 2007)
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
I have now looked at your hypothesis and here are my responses :-
Easy Money The statement: conceptions of Christianity and what it means to be Christian have taken many vastly contradictory forms over the centuries.
Hilarius The original formulation of first order matters of importance in Christian belief was completed in the 4th Century in the Nicene Creed which remains, over 1600 years later, the agreed core belief for Catholics, Orthodox and Mainstream Protestant Christians
The exploitation of Christianity by individuals for their own agendas does not alter the fact that the core beliefs have remained unaltered. From the Crusades to Northern Ireland to Osama Bin Laden the perversion of good religions for bad purposes has continued. We should not be surprised that something good is perverted and misused, but we should seek to retain the orignal message of peace and caring for others all the more strongly.
Easy Money The question: whether you would recognise the word of God if the paradigm expressed is unfamiliar to you.
Hilarius I don't understand the question
Easy Money The hypothesis: God's laws are absolute and deterministic. It is no more possible to break God's laws than it is to break Newton's laws of motion. Nothing can ever happen that is contrary to God's will. That is the immutable law.
Hilarius From day one men and women declared themselves able to break the laws of God by the exercise of their free will. They can and do break the laws to this day, and I await with interest your demonstration that they can not do so.
Easy Money The evidence: human history including the words of the Bible.
Hilarius I suggest that the events of history, including biblical accounts of rebellion against the will of God, demonstrate that God's will is consistently defied
Easy Money The challenge: to determine whether your faith is strong enough to enable you to consider an alternative paradigm without resorting to dogma.
Hilarius Doubt and consideration of alternatives are key ingredients in a journey of growing faith. This journey of discovery includes the use of reason in examining the evidence for all potential viewpoints.
Easy Money The example: thou shalt not kill - this is almost universally interpreted as an instruction from God. By my hypothesis it is not. It is a sage observation that under God's laws unjust actions have natural consequences and that no good every came from killing.
Hilarius I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make here
Easy Money I challenge you to find anything in the Bible contrary to my hypothesis.
Hilarius I find that just about everything in the Bible is contrary to your hypothesis. What part of the Bible do you consider supports your view?
Easy If you can then we'll both be better for the exchange.
Hilarius I agree that the exchange has value, regardless of whose view is accepted
Easy Money That, gentlemen, is the power of science!
Hilarius Ladies and Gentlemen, I look forward to discovering the power of science in understanding matters of the heart and mind, and most particularly in discovering the will of God
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
"You might like to take note that this thread was not started by me, or Ingot or Eternalsphere It was started by a non-believer"
More blatant arrogance from Hilarius implying that ES is some sort of Demon for being a non-believer. I am sure Eternalsphere has his own beliefs and ideals they are just not the same as Christians.
Perhaps they include such things as letting people live their own lives without interference. Loving other people and letting people see from your actions the type of person you are without ramming religion down peoples throats. Not repeating ad nauseam passages from some book that people are free to read if they want to anyhow. I find this behavior moronic as just repeating things does not make them true it also shows no creative thinking.
And as a friend wrote to me and said yesterday obviously Christianity has no place for acceptance and humility.
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
Hiarius wrote: Christianity is the direct opposite of a cargo cult
Would any member of a cargo cult ever say anything else?
You do know what a cargo cult is don't you? A set of beliefs formed by primitive people to explain phenomena they can't understand.
Hilarius: It is founded on the principle of serving others. Which brings its own reward as a consequence but not as the primary objective. It is more blessed to give than to receive.
How do you distinguish this from the beliefs of a cargo cult?
The lord visited the earth and said he would return within the holy Hercules on vector three fife niner. He created great gifts of clothing and sustenance from the thin air above and placed them within the holy crates. It is he who told us the great truth that it is better to give than to receive. This we understand. He is mighty and all powerful. Each day we must place the clothes and the food into our own crates and delivereth them behind thine enemy lines.
He alone was gained of clearance to the airways and ascended to the heavens. He left behind the holy communicator. In the early days we did press the buttion and hear the controller and he did sayeth Delta Whisky Tango climb flight level 500 contact Melbourne Centre on one one five dayseemal niner gday. Each day we press the button and pray to the almighty Brisbane Centre comforted by the knowledge that he will hear our prayers for take off.
...but the Bible is different. Tell me how again?
Hilarius: They can and do break the laws to this day, and I await with interest your demonstration that they can not do so.
Ok. Let's start with the concept of an immutable law. I came across a Golf instructional site that proclaimed that all a golfer needs to do is to obey Newton's laws and they will improve. This site then promised to teach them how to do so. Identify the error in the claim.
Hilarius: I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make here
Houston, we have a problem. Imagine if you heard the word of God but couldn't understand it!
(Message edited by easymoney on October 27, 2007)
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
You quoted me correctly :- "You might like to take note that this thread was not started by me, or Ingot or Eternalsphere It was started by a non-believer"
Phil, you then responded :- More blatant arrogance from Hilarius implying that ES is some sort of Demon for being a non-believer. I am sure Eternalsphere has his own beliefs and ideals they are just not the same as Christians.
Hilarius Phil I am not sure whether you realise how much negative, judgmental language you seem to require to make your points. In one sentence you have come up with "blatant arrogance" and "Demon" to start a completely new issue for no apparent reason. It seems we agree that ES has beliefs and ideals so how does that lead to your conclusion? I simply don't understand what you are trying to say. What remains crystal clear is that this thread was not started by a believer.
Phil Perhaps they include such things as letting people live their own lives without interference.
Hilarius If you believe in non-interference then perhaps you would like to stop the publication of atheist letters to newspapers, atheist newspaper articles, atheist views on television and atheist books, all of which "interfere" with the peace of mind of Christians?
For my part I welcome the freedom that gives people the right to express their individual views. Apparently you don't?
I find it fascinating that the Christian expressions in this thread go out of their way to tolerate and understand the views of non-Christians, while several messages have sought to silence the Christian views. The level of intolerance towards Christians is considerable. I welcome it as a demonstration of the point that absence of Christian beliefs certainly does not improve the civility and tolerance of some who write against Christianity here.
Phil Loving other people and letting people see from your actions the type of person you are without ramming religion down peoples throats.
Hilarius So it is OK to ram intolerance of Christian beliefs down people's throats as the author of this thread did, and as you so quickly did after that? Intolerance seems to be fine as long as it is atheist intolerance. Christian tolerance on the other hand is disregarded.
Phil Not repeating ad nauseam passages from some book that people are free to read if they want to anyhow. I find this behavior moronic as just repeating things does not make them true it also shows no creative thinking.
Hilarius Again the unnecessary negative language. Why not simply ask Ingot a question about something you don't understand rather than just dismiss his quotations out of hand? I find the Bible the most interesting of all books and a great deal more interesting than the lowest common denominator television that seems to occupy the minds of many
Phil And as a friend wrote to me and said yesterday obviously Christianity has no place for acceptance and humility.
Hilarius And the basis for that comment is?
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Hilarius I do know what a cargo cult is and I do not consider that Christianity fits the definition for reasons I supplied above
Quoting them again: It (Christianity) is founded on the principle of serving others. Which brings its own reward as a consequence but not as the primary objective. It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Easy Money How do you distinguish this from the beliefs of a cargo cult?
Hilarius Because cargo cult people seem to have no responsibility to contribute to the betterment of society, but simply hang around hoping and waiting for something to happen
Easy Money A dissertation on air traffic control [the point of which escapes me: Hilarius]
Easy Money Ok. Let's start with the concept of an immutable law. I came across a Golf instructional site that proclaimed that all a golfer needs to do is to obey Newton's laws and they will improve. This site then promised to teach them how to do so. Identify the error in the claim.
Hilarius I see no error in the claim ... apart from a small question ... how do we know the pupil has the capacity to learn?
Easy Money Houston, we have a problem. Imagine if you heard the word of God but couldn't understand it!
Hilarius Now we are getting somewhere at last. The answer is simple. Meet with others to discuss it ... just like we are doing here ... if the interest in the topic which is not fully understood is genuine.
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
How about all us "atheists" disown and distance ourselves from that dill,jimdene,the opener of this thread?
then we too will be in the position of saying- But that's not TRUE Atheism and we are purer,more admirable than this,well jim dene and all of you will see that this is Valid etc blah as long as one Categorises,Pidgeon Holes us as an Elite, so it's us vs the pathetic ALSO adherents of our Beliefs.
philr+eternal sphere please cease and desist.Open up the 1/3 day search and see the Balance between Posts and Threads.Only those one line Yahoos exceed this one. regards.
When the amount of posts outweigh the forum identity in TA and share trading, something is radically wrong.
Colin please give us more check buttons so we have the opportunity to axe this rubbish for good, allowing us to get back to the real strength of this IC group, talking trading.
I am generally an observer but this has gone beyond a joke, plus the fact it was operating in another disguise which Colin had to step in and stop for the same reason.
OK phil,I get d'Picture. You're afraid that Hilarius and Ingot54 in the dark of night will gloat,make an offering to god of See Master I do the Good Fight amongst those to be Damned,atheists.
They spit chips,phil that they don't qualify for Plenary Indulgences any more and I wonder if The Proddos have those Christian Knighthoods that the Micks[RCers] do?
Ingot54,you're not very discerning to think I ain't read d'Bible but how about you ponder on this excert-
Love thy Neighbour,right? but most dills don't contemplate that quotes Kicker As THYSELF.
There's quite a good summary by Erich Fromm in Art of Loving. [bet you thought such a title would be more "risque",you just one of d'fellas,you.]
but basically this "Dictum" negates any carry on about sin and saving,aspiring to heaven to justify "Belief".
One DOES what one feels is GOOD4YOU!! not because Jesus told you SO!
so it's complete Piffle and BALDERDASH, to claim some higher ground,admirable qualities exclusively to what you narrowly define as Christians. You are displaying d'AUDACITY of Trawling They/Us/We should see the Light and only by thinking Exactly like you within an Airy FAIRY...ahhhh geeeeeeez you got More of a Definition to Entry as the bleeding Exclusive Breaterens!!!
Truly your sophisism,Christian 303 Bible Readings, d'Word for the NOW Generation. Look Hilarius and Ivan this narrowing of your Known Constituents?How blithely you dismiss any and all criticism.......
ohh just cain't go on. Hilarius MAY do his patented cut'n'paste Comment/Answer on me and I HATE those. Ivan might come some New Age PAP aimed at Boosting my Self Esteem and I just LOATHE the ESTeem Generation and like what they put on calendar MOTTOS.
philr i expect you to do five posts containing five lines for five days on Shares as PENANCE. and philr,you make a mistake,say something dill? well ya 4d'BOUNCE
I was making the point that you Hilarius are blatantly arrogant in referring to someone as an-unbeliever implying that they are someone who is not quite as good as you. Constantly referring to my statements as being negative does not make them any less true.
"then perhaps you would like to stop the publication of atheist letters to newspapers"
I do not want to stop people sending letters to newspapers I don't know what ever gave you that idea. Making up something from nothing as you tend to do I guess. Also you are being elitist again referring to atheists. I unlike you believe all people to be equal.
Non Christians do not go out of their way to control and influence others thats why I take a particular dislike of your actions. (Oh dear I have used the word "dislike" I guess you will take offense at that being negative too and try to censor me)
I don't ram intolerance down peoples throats I just object to your assertion that people lead a barren and worthless life if they don't follow you.
"Again the unnecessary negative language. Why not simply ask Ingot a question about something you don't understand rather than just dismiss his quotations out of hand?"
Because repeating something over and over I do consider moronic, If I did I would only get more of the same as you people never let up.
"And as a friend wrote to me and said yesterday obviously Christianity has no place for acceptance and humility.
Hilarius And the basis for that comment is?"
The basis for this comment is that they made that assumption after reading your comments in this thread.
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
even though it was a time cross-over. 10x10x10 on ya now phil but Feel FREE to devise ya own quid pro quo but if I don't See some True to Purpose IC posts from you, I'll be "cranky"
eternal sphere please Follow the Reasons for IC. you do interesting posts at least you do Some Posts which is better than you perving Lurkers participate in!!
Guys, if you would put as much energy and effort into share trading as you put into this crappy thread, you would make more money. The need to be right plagues a lot of people. Why? You will find that the need to be right is the flip side of fear. Insisting that you are right is equal to the fear of being wrong. We generally are trained that it is important to be right. Those who are proven wrong are said to fail. Remember school? The trouble is that being right is an illusion, because nobody, including Hilarius or Phil, can be prove right or wrong in this discussion. So come on guys, spend time analysing your trades and forget about this crappy discussion. The forum will be better without it and you will make more money.
Me: Ok. Let's start with the concept of an immutable law. I came across a Golf instructional site that proclaimed that all a golfer needs to do is to obey Newton's laws and they will improve. This site then promised to teach them how to do so. Identify the error in the claim.
Hilarius: I see no error in the claim ... apart from a small question ... how do we know the pupil has the capacity to learn?
Newton's laws can neither be followed nor broken by a golfer or by anybody else. Your every action is governed by them and that is completely different to following them. You cannot learn how to obey them.
Does this explain the concept of an immutable law? My hypothesis is that God's laws are also immutable, and that makes organised religions the biggest cargo cults the world has ever known.
If you are a small time trader like me there are some immutable laws in trading as well. One is that the better the money management, the better the long term prospects.
...now where did I put that magic stick?
As they say in TXT language...
CYA
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
The laws of physics can not be changed ... I agree
How we use them can surely be changed?
For examples those who could not fly discovered how to build and fly planes, to do what for centures had appeared impossible
Further to that, when we look at the purposes to which we apply the laws of physics we have moral choices
We can divert resources from the manufacture of land mines to life saving medicines
We can pre-empt the need for going to war by winning the peace with education & actions that build productive capacity that ends poverty
My dearly loved late biological father was an atheist who believed that the universe is governed by the laws of physics
Were he alive today I would want him to believe that our moral choices decide the best use we make of those laws
I actually think he did believe it so we could probably be content in each other's company, but I would encourage him more actively than I did to accompany me to Church
I could probably have done that by actions more than by words
I agree with Dug when he says that actions speak louder than words. I also agree with Ingot that the Word of God and the teachings of Christ are life changing.
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
I recently emailed Aussie Number one Atheist Philip Adams, suggesting the main threat to world peace were the religious nuts, controlling the Bush Administration in the good ole US of A..He replied that his immediate agenda is bringing down the Howard Government, which suggests he is more fearful of Howard than God
Eric I deliberately chose the General, anything that does not fit under one of the other topics, to stir up the topic of religion. I have had my parents send me to Sunday school, in order to indoctrinate me into the Christian religion, which they themselves have also been forced into, etc., etc., I have the greatest admiration for Colin, in allowing this subject to persist, as I think he is of the faith and I think he will no doubt tell us if it is inappropriate to carry on. I am not diverting readers from the main reason for the existence of IC., it is their choice if they wish to look at General
That email was sent privately to you personally, in a genuine and kind-spirited attempt to reach your heart.
The content of that email clearly displays my intent - there was no malice, no ridicule, no threats - only kindness towards you, which you have rejected in the most underhanded way a human being can act - the betrayal of the kindness of another, the trust of another.
I hoped to reach out to you with a simple answer to your question, responding with the Truth. And as such, the message to you from that email still stands.
If you hoped to embarrass me or make a point by the betrayal of a confidence, it was a deceitful attempt. I can only think you were unable to handle the depth of the message, and in order to restore comfort, you decided to break the confidence extended to you.
The email was private, because such things are.
Your "mates" may laugh in derision yet again, but they do not laugh at me - I am above feeling their ridicule for something so honouring as to be loyal to Someone who gave everything for me - no, they laugh in God's face, because this is none of my work - it is His work.
I am the messenger.
You asked about light.
You hide in darkness.
You attempt to illuminate yourself through mixing with the haughty. You hoped to belittle me by laughing at my efforts to assist you. There was no harassment ... I wonder at your response to human kindness.
Your further deceit is written in your post above:
QUOTE: I don't know why Ivan chose to send me this personal email instead of posting on the forum. Jim
Here is part of my email which you had full knowledge of, as you created your mischief: you knew this was the reason. No need to lie about it.
QUOTE "I have chosen to withdraw from further discussion, because the things we were attempting to discuss are reserved for those who are genuinely seeking, and I have come to realise that you are not, nor are the others who rushed in to ridicule and mock."
So Jim, I say again, I have chosen to withdraw from further discussion, because the things we were attempting to discuss are reserved for those who are genuinely seeking.
"Those beneath you Can't offend you. Those your equal Wouldn't"
I am not offended Jim.
Only saddened by your betrayal of my confidence.
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
You could take a leaf from the book of Eric and Philr and Easymoney.
None of these men played the personal card - it was all up front, and the discussion has been reasonably amicable given the contentious topic. It was pretty well exhausted anyway.
Philr has at all times clearly stated his position and argued his case without resorting to tactics.
Easymoney also has plainly made a case for science, which I respect. We happen to be sharetraders who have opposing views on the origin of man it seems, but these guys kept to the rules.
I would be particularly surprised if any of them congratulate you for having trumped the argument with your secret revelation of an email from Ingot.
Eric particularly is someone I know is far above such things. It is possible to disagree on some things, but work closely on others.
Dug too might be a lot of things, but he is honest and hides nothing. I would trust Dug with a private email.
Your nominating of the Jews (or any race) as a reason for your incredibly insecure behaviour says a lot more about your heart than it says about them.
In case you were not aware of it, Jesus was a Jew, and He called God His Father.
Jim I think your trustworthiness and credibility are in need of examination here.
Don't you think?
I'm still shaking my head of the revelation of the true nature of your character.
Keep Smiling - Don't look back
Trading style: Chartist Artist _ Breakouts and Shakeouts.
What is so wrong about Sunday School? A rational answer would be helpful.
Indoctrination is a good word to use for imparting of knowledge and children are not deprived of free will in deciding whether to accept or reject in later life
If there is something in Sunday School that is unhelpful to children I would like to know what it is
I deny that Christians are unable to think for themselves
It seems that atheists need indoctrinating pastors too ... Philip Adams, Richard Dawkins and others
Why can't atheists think for themselves ?
Finally with very little change I agree with the following statement by Jim Dene :-
I will say it again. I don't know why people can't think for themselves. There is no God [for those who reject Him].
There was no 7 day creation of the world. [I accept science and new earth creationists are a tiny misguided minority]
No Adam, no Eve taken from the rib of Adam. [We are all Adam and Eve]
The God that you worship is not your God. [True, he is everyone's God not mine]
His name is Yaweh the god of the Jews. Everything he did was for the Jews. [And for the whole world]
All the killings (of?) men women and children, were for the continuation of the Jews religion. [Killings are done by people for all sorts of reasons ... but mainly because they haven't learned enough about God's desire for peace]
I personally want no part with this mythological megalomaniac killer [Which mythological killer? As far as I know God has killed no-one. Killings are done by people not by God, and except in defence, killings are done for all sorts of wrong reasons. There would be no killings if the peaceful teachings in Sunday Schools were more widely understood.]
I wish the whole world could be indoctrinated with peace
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
While I was initially disappointed that Jim published your private message, when I stand at the foot of the Cross I know that there was a far greater betrayal, and great love by the one betrayed
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"
From this we must pray that sometime when Jim needs peace and reconciliation with a loving God he will find it.
Sometimes we can only find God through his crucified son Jesus Christ, after the deepest hurts and despair have been put behind us, though I wish no one harm or despair ... and you Ingot had good reason to feel despair in the story of your own reasons to hate God which you resisted
In the words of Saint Paul all things work for good, but a world in which no one betrays anyone would be a goal so great that all our differences would be seen as good ... if they could only lead to more understanding
I'm off to Church to pray for Jim and to give thanks for your kindness to him
Cheers
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
In order for me to stop this, I now have to make the decision to switch off the General thread.
I have enclosed a screen shot of the situation, but as it is only a small sample off the depth of the thread, I find it difficult to believe that even with people protesting, the small group evolved is continuing to promote the situation.
Please note the volume of the threads concerned
Does hijacking an entire source of possible information for genuine readers seem satisfying.Or don't they care.
Most people "Saw The Light" when Edison created the "Light Bulb".
Today ,we can do something about it by changing to Fluoro thus saving the planet.
Captain- The Lions LOSE is one of the most sophisticated Puns you've ever done in my memory.[it's a pun on loose,you pedantics who think we talk gibberish] as for you jimdene you are truly dispickable.A CREEP who if we are bound for Hell,I pray don't inhabit my slot."I rang Phillip Adams on Talk Back Radio and blathered out a standard cliche and he said...." geezus you complete loser.Trust me jim,I know which part of Ivan's Private Email you really wanted/needed to get out there,ya done nothing pansy.
I hereby leave any Club jimdene says he's a member of. Gone Agnostic but still never Christian. Would have voted for Barabbas if I'd been there,more a Goer for heaven on earth type was Barabbas.
but there will be no more posts by me on this subject.
I was just basing my statement on gohards post that he may have to shut down the general section. Better to have a general section without religion and politics than no general section at all.
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
If I were a voting man at the time I would have given my thumbs up to Johnno the Baptist
I think he was much more respected in his time than that bloke who came in on a donkey and did all his greatest work after he died
Salute and Gods' speed
Crikey! There was no miracle coming into town on a donkey in those days From what I am lead to believe it was the normal form of transport for the middle classes!!!
(Message edited by captain_chaza on October 28, 2007)
"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.
"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate." Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893
"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897
Being beheaded (John the Baptist) or being crucified (Jesus Christ) were probably both hard work
The French perfected swift execution with the Guillotine but there was still the journey to the execution site in an open cart to the accompaniment of cheering jeering crowds
What is it about people that they can't live together in peace and prosperity without getting annoyed with each other?
The message of peace is so simple that atheists and believers could even agree on it
Why don't people get it?
Cheers and Regards to the Captain and his Crew
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Jimdene original question QUOTE: I was once cornered by a born again, as usual no hoper rat bag, cleaned up and indoctrinated into religion, which most sensible people had long ago dismissed as being a big con.. I asked him why he had been chosen to have the light shown on him, whereas I had been omitted. A question I later regretted as I can only feel sympathy for people who find that they cannot think for themselves ---: UNQOUTE
I may be missing something here -- but I cannot see any reference to christianity, god or bible here -- simply one word " religion " .
posters here are not surly saying that the Judaeo/Christian God is the ONLY God and Christianity the ONLY religion.
Very Bold and Arrogant towards other religions is it not ?
Jimdene stated that the person in question was " Born Again " -- how do you know he is not referring to reincarnation -- this person may have been a Hindu or Buddhist .
Jimdene refers to a light -- this could very well be implying that this person may very well indeed been a Buddhist and had been Enlightened .
One thing I am concerned about for all Christians though is that they have chosen the RIGHT Sect --- because as any Church/Sect member knows -- If your not a member of my Sect then your DOOMED -- all your good works/beliefs/prayers will count for nought --- you see I know I,ll be O/K because I'm in the "one and only true sect" -- Wow what am I saying -- I've had enough sh*t in this life without going through it all again, thank you
If you can not see the stupidity in this by now -- well no wonder you rely on some god , because your certainly incapable of relying on yourself. or put it another way - where would God/Gods be if man had not created them -- they need us to exist, we do not need them to exist .
them bl**dy sirens again
(Message edited by coyotte on October 29, 2007)
The "Sea of Uncertainty" is defeated by the nimble vessel "Probability", not the unwieldy vessel "Prediction".
Jimdene original question QUOTE: I was once cornered by a born again, as usual no hoper rat bag, cleaned up and indoctrinated into religion, which most sensible people had long ago dismissed as being a big con.. I asked him why he had been chosen to have the light shown on him, whereas I had been omitted. A question I later regretted as I can only feel sympathy for people who find that they cannot think for themselves ---: UNQOUTE
Coyotte I may be missing something here -- but I cannot see any reference to christianity, god or bible here -- simply one word " religion " .
posters here are not surly saying that the Judaeo/Christian God is the ONLY God and Christianity the ONLY religion.
Hilarius Clearly there are many religions
Coyotte Very Bold and Arrogant towards other religions is it not ?
Hilarius No one is suggesting Christianity is the only religion
Coyotte Jimdene stated that the person in question was " Born Again " -- how do you know he is not referring to reincarnation -- this person may have been a Hindu or Buddhist .
Hilarius Technically correct, but in Western society the term "born again" is most frequently used by or in reference to Christians
Coyotte Jimdene refers to a light -- this could very well be implying that this person may very well indeed been a Buddhist and had been Enlightened .
Hilarius Again technically correct. I somehow doubt that JimDene is referring to a Buddhist, but I await his clarification if that is the case
Coyotte One thing I am concerned about for all Christians though is that they have chosen the RIGHT Sect --- because as any Church/Sect member knows -- If your not a member of my Sect then your DOOMED -- all your good
works/beliefs/prayers will count for nought --- you see I know I,ll be O/K because I'm in the "one and only true sect" .
Hilarius Again technically correct; there are a few exclusive sects on the extreme fringes of "Christianity" who do operate that way. However, the overwhelming majority of Christians welcome those from any part of the Christian Church to their services. There are issues about receiving Communion in the case of the Catholic Church, but certainly no lack of goodwill or welcome at services. In my Church communicant members of any Christian Church are welcome to receive communion and are invited to do so.
The term "sect" is not appropriate for Catholic, Orthodox or mainstream Protestant Christians
Coyotte If you can not see the stupidity in this by now -- well no wonder you rely on some god , because your certainly incapable of relying on yourself.
Hilarius I see no place for negative words in this discussion. Christians don't need them. Why do non-Christians resort to aggressive and negative language so readily.
As to relying on ourselves, it is not a question of relying on God or oneself but in entering into a thinking partnership with God. We can and do think for ourselves and the assumption by non-beliervers that they have a monopoly on independent thought is incorrect.
If we make a conscious decision for co-dependency that is no different to a non-believer making a decision in favour of co-dependency with a partner. To the Christian the co-dependency with God is as fruitful as that with family, friends and even members of Incredible Charts who happen to disagree with us.
And so to bed
The day Thou gavest, Lord, is ended, The darkness falls at Thy behest; To Thee our morning hymns ascended, Thy praise shall sanctify our rest.
We thank Thee that Thy church, unsleeping, While earth rolls onward into light, Through all the world her watch is keeping, And rests not now by day or night.
As o’er each continent and island The dawn leads on another day, The voice of prayer is never silent, Nor dies the strain of praise away.
The sun that bids us rest is waking Our brethren ’neath the western sky, And hour by hour fresh lips are making Thy wondrous doings heard on high.
So be it, Lord; Thy throne shall never, Like earth’s proud empires, pass away: Thy kingdom stands, and grows forever, Till all Thy creatures own Thy sway.
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
“That email was sent privately to you personally, in a genuine and kind-spirited attempt to reach your heart.
The content of that email clearly displays my intent - there was no malice, no ridicule, no threats - only kindness towards you, which you have rejected in the most underhanded way a human being can act - the betrayal of the kindness of another, the trust of another”.
I won’t have people coming to my door preaching to me and I certainly will not accept soliciting emails on the subject of religion. Why is it that I am expected to respect your religion and mythological god, but at the same time, you couldn’t give a damn about my atheistic belief. I have done what I set out to do, upset the religious apple cart, to show the fence sitters, just how vindictive some of them are, and it is more fun that agreeing with one and other on a atheist/agnostic web site forum. I suspect there are those among them, who only go to church at christenings, weddings and funerals and never ever pray, but still put down Church of England, Baptist, RC whatever, on their census forms, and yet do not give the slightest thought as to why they do it unless it is to have a two way bet when they die, just to be on the safe side.
I always find that the following bible quotations a much juicer read, that of the founder of religion, a role model by any standards Genesis Chapter 12 10. When Abraham tells his wife Sarah to say she is his sister so that Pharoah would take her into his harem and Abraham would be looked upon more favorably A point I tried to make earlier about god being only a god of the Jews, nobody else occurred then, when he goes on to punish the Egyptians through no fault of their own. After they were kicked out of Egypt, astonishingly the couple tried the same thing with the King of Abimelech in Gerar Genesis chapter 20
Plain English as I wish,jimdene but how about stirring up the evangelical websites with your Old Testament Porn? you could even start up your wail about "My Experiences as a "No Nothing seemed to Work" until i discoved MACD/Mass!" ya bugging me,jim. cheers.
It is your absolute right not to have a good opinion of a religion
It is your absolute duty to respect the rights of others regardless of your personal opinions, as long as those rights of others do not harm you
In what way are you harmed by anyone knocking on your door or sending you an email?
I personally am not of the Mormon faith, and it is quite distant theologically from mine on certain key points. Yet I take the view that that when a couple of Mormons knock on my door after having travelled half way round the world to try to make the world a better place, the least my family can do is offer them a cold or hot drink and listen to what they have to say.
When I raise the matter of the Nicene Creed and whether they are able to affirm it, whatever then transpires in the way of respectful disagreement in no way alters my admiration for their courage and dedication
I commend a gentle response to you next time someone sends knocks on your door or sends you an email, if they have a genuine interest in your views.
Why would you not seek to discover those principles you enjoy in common with the visitor or writer before rushing to dismiss their peaceful thoughts?
I find I share many moral values with non-believers and in many areas we have the same ideals, and I always enjoy discovering those things we have in common, as well as exploring the reasons for any differences
The world needs less confrontation, not more
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Dug, I seem to have upset you by saying that I get no help from your inputs, even when I understand them. I look forward to any sensible contribution that you can make on this subject.
"I commend a gentle response to you next time someone sends knocks on your door or sends you an email, if they have a genuine interest in your views.
Why would you not seek to discover those principles you enjoy in common with the visitor or writer before rushing to dismiss their peaceful thoughts"
Because I know where I stand Hilarius, and I don't have time listening to paraphrases. I long ago rejected preachings coming out of a book where everybody has a different interpretation, the ridiculous said to mean something else, just in case people start to wise up. I don't need to go into all of that, it would take too long. I just wish people would not just blindly accept the bible as a true account. The very first pages of Genesis, should sound alarm bells. It doesn't take much research to find out that these stories sagas and myths had been around for ages. The overriding theme of the bible storyline is the theme of cultural conquest by the Hebrews over their enemy neighbors, culturally by the Jews over the Israelites, the christians over the Jews. The catholics over the gnostics. The story of the editing and translation of the final form of the bible into what today is regarded as holy scripture is a story not just of cultural conquest, but of political intrigues, and not just between competing bishops, but with secular political authority. It is as if the US congress or president were to decide what constituted Christian doctrine.(That may not be far off) Many religious myths come from the oldest complete literary work, dating back to at least 7000 years. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a lengthy narrative of heroic mythology incorporating the stories of creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world and the story of a great flood. Why did it take god 6 million years or so, to appear before an unprincipled person such as Abraham?
H: Don't have time to be interested in others? Everything is a paraphrase so that's no excuse.
I long ago rejected preachings coming out of a book where everybody has a different interpretation, the ridiculous said to mean something else, just in case people start to wise up.
H: Mainstream Christian interpretations differ very little
I don't need to go into all of that, it would take too long.
H: If you are confident of your position why would you begrudge stating it clearly?
I just wish people would not just blindly accept the bible as a true account.
H: I just wish people would not just blindly treat the bible as a false account
The very first pages of Genesis, should sound alarm bells.
H: Why?
It doesn't take much research to find out that these stories sagas and myths had been around for ages.
H: Irrelevant, except as confirmation that people routinely seek to discover what lies behind the seemingly unknown and unknowable
The overriding theme of the bible storyline is the theme of cultural conquest by the Hebrews over their enemy neighbors, culturally by the Jews over the Israelites, the christians over the Jews.
H: Now we are getting somewhere. But you can't have it both ways. Either the people caused the problems or God did. You need to make up your mind.
The catholics over the gnostics.
H: These are post biblical groups ... but the answers to their differences are found in scripture
The story of the editing and translation of the final form of the bible into what today is regarded as holy scripture is a story not just of cultural conquest, but of political intrigues, and not just between competing bishops, but with secular political authority.
H: Prove it
It is as if the US congress or president were to decide what constituted Christian doctrine.(That may not be far off)
H: The overwhelming majority of bishops from diverse autonomous Churches were in agreement. No one forced them to formulate the Nicene Creed, and the fact that they did is evidence of the spirit of God working in them
The Orthodox Church claims that for 2000 years God has guided the Church meeting in Council. Name another institution that has survived so long and got so much right. I admire and agree with the Orthodox view.
J: Many religious myths come from the oldest complete literary work, dating back to at least 7000 years. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a lengthy narrative of heroic mythology incorporating the stories of creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world and the story of a great flood.
H: Totally and utterly irrelevant ... but if you think it is relevant why would it not confirm rather than undermine Christian claims?
Why did it take god 6 million years or so, to appear before an unprincipled person such as Abraham?
H: Because for a long time people persisted in rejecting God just like you do but God wanted people to have what people demanded ... namely the right to knowledge and the right free will and the right to second guess God
Apparently you would criticise God for allowing free will and all its consequences, while still blaming God for all human error. A classic case of responsibility avoidance by you and all your rejecting predecessors, Jim.
Why am I not following my own advice to be gentle with you Jim? I am being gentle Jim! I am offering you tough love and straight forward advice. I hope my humanly cynical expectation that you will reject my words proves wrong, but I've encountered too many people who think they know better than God to have a lot of hope in your case.
Nevertheless if you have some deep past hurt in your life that is causing your present hatred of God and the Church the only way to make progress is to discover what that hurt is
We won't get to that stage as long as I nurture your right to false preconceptions and unexplained assertions
You have a right to your views if soundly based but the lack of any rational basis for your stated opinions is unacceptable. You make so many claims with so little proof while Christians have 2000 years of faithful witness and scriptures which lift people to new heights of experience of others in place of self absorbed priorities
Even considered as literature the Bible is worth preserving as a record of man's folly and rejection of goodness in OT times and new teaching of great power and beauty in the NT
You show some signs of having read scriptures but has it been to do any more than reinforce your inbuilt prejudices?
Christians on the other hand search every corner of their consciences and their lives and discover extraordinary levels of relevance in scriptures for more other centred living ... we are engaged in as much of an intellectual struggle as the non-believer to find meaning and purpose in life and when we find it in the teachings of Christ there is unimaginable joy in the their transforming power
If we do not couple that with deep humility the sin of pride overtakes us ... but we are told that the first shall come last and the last shall come first ... so there is zero room for pride
When I consider what Christ did for me I am unable to avoid expressing my hope for others
This is the only time we have the chance to serve others and experience not only physical sensations but time itself ... it is a priceless once in a billion years opportunity to enjoy our physical senses, changing relationships with others and application of free will and effort to discovering the finest ideas that have ever been expressed
As literature alone the Bible gives us these ... and it is no wonder that it outsells just about everything else ever written.
Atheists inform me they too have moral values. I totally agree but what is the source of morality? Is it Darwinian survival of the fittest alone? Surely not.
I am a believer in evolution and a Christian. If we are to evolve into something better than we have been historically I believe we have a need for a partnership with a higher power. Failing that the atheist can still distill from scriptures principles of service to others which Darwinian evolutionary theory will never provide.
From Stalin to Pol Pot we see the destructive power of self interest and paranoia, as the fittest attempt to impose their will and suppress the rights of others
These are the Darwinian traits of careless survival that excludes morality
Caring Christianity is the answer along with the best in all the world religions.
Rejection must include the explanation that there is a better more valid way than God's
The errors of the Churches are entirely outweighed by the goodness of individual Christians one to another and to the world
Jim, I don't doubt you have moral principles, despite your ill advised publication of a private email ...
I am inclined to believe you want a better world but if you hate the Churches so much you should campaign for their destruction. If you really want a world with no Churches and no Christians why not campaign for more public Crucifixions? That would help the fittest to survive?
It is not an answer to say that you are tolerant, because your opening message showed that you are not.
I would prefer that you translated your hatred of the Church and Christianity into a campaign to make us illegal like the Roman Emperors did
I don't want to be a martyr. It is quite painful to be persecuted for one's faith and I don't seek it. But I would prefer that you campaigned for the outlawing of Churches and Religion and the burning of Churches and Scriptures if that is the way you truly feel.
Sitting in the shadows just putting out little protests is pathetic by comparison with well thought out opposition
Go to a Church and tell people what YOU BELIEVE if you have the courage of your convictions ... but be prepared to listen as well as condemn}
I don't think you have the slightest desire to listen but if you did you would go to Church as regularly as a Christian and engage with Christians in Bible Study
I don't think you have what it takes to move through the process of testing your faith in atheism, in a Christian environment. I've been in atheist environments and I've encountered every type of atheist from proud to humble.
Which are you, and why?
When I survey the wondrous Cross On which the prince of glory died My richest gain I count but loss And pour contempt on all my pride
Were the whole realm of nature mine That were an offering far too small Love so amazing, so divine Demands my soul, my life, my all
With Best Wishes
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
The central point in evolutionary theory which is missed most often is that evolution of a species occurs through random genetic differences which affect the ability of individuals to survive until they reproduce.
If some random difference in humans occurred like a blue spot on the end of the nose, and that difference enabled the blue spotted ones to better survive to the age of reproduction, or to reproduce in bigger numbers, then that would lead to a gradual increase in the proportion of blue spotted humans.
Anything which happens after the individual has reproduced is irrelevant to the evolution of the species.
The beauty of evolutionary theory is in its simplicity.
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
Hilarius lets apply the old adage to both of us, although you may not agree. "There are none so blind as those who will not see" One of us is right and the other wrong about heaven, no two ways about it.
My book titled Exegetical Fallacies warns against the common logical error of the False Dichotomy
In a nutshell when people offer "Either/Or" propositions they may be overlooking the third option which is "Both one/And the other"
The Late Pope John Paul II said those go to heaven who seek it and those don't who don't
Maybe we can meet for a timeless cup of non-material coffee as we wait to see Saint Peter, before each going our timeless separate ways (which would be sad in itself)
Being an agnostic in relation to my own salvation I could even be joining you, though my minister encourages me that we have the assurance of forgiveness and eternal life if we desire it and wish to be forgiven
You might care to be reassured by the Late Pope's lunchtime address in which he said that physical torment in hell is a totally outdated medieval concept, and that it is purely a question of self-chosen separation from God
We have no physical bodies so we can feel no physical pain
I hope that you will feel no other pain when you achieve the eternal separation you have chosen, but merely the result that you have so earnestly sought ... peace and quiet and no Christians
I would prefer that you joined me in timeless unity with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit
In Nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritu Sanctus
Hilarius
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities
Jimdene, I make no distinction between christians and atheists -- those are merely labels that people award themselves -- but I do judge a tree by the fruit it bears. You betrayed the confidence of someone who has distinguished themselves as a generous, caring and compassionate member of this community. If that is your idea of humanity, then you are no longer welcome here.
Hilarius wrote: I understand the proportion of red haired people is declining significantly. Do you know why?
No. It's at this point that this simple scientific theory meets the limit of its explanatory power.
Hilarius: Is there a way to find out so that we can eliminate non-belief in the same way?
Hmmm. I'd suggest that attempts to harness the principle of evolution to achieve such a goal would be ineffective.
Hilarius: Not that I would want to interfere with nature. That would be too God-like.
Ahh! I return to my hypothesis. Setting up the immutable laws of cause and effect is God-like. After that there is only cause and effect. That's where humans fit in. Humans do things and other things happen.
Hilarius: Anyway I am pleased to hear that evolution is a lot simpler than I thought.
The principle is very simple. On its own though, it has surprisingly little predictive or explanatory power.
Two of them say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.
Colin I didn’t know that there was a rule of etiquette regarding the passing on of emails to others. It must be just for your forums and to intimidate those who wish to talk against religion. Would you honestly have taken up the roll of Judge and Juror had it been the passing on of any other email As far as I aware the passing on of emails is a normal practice on the internet, I would certainly have been prepared to offer an apology, but not now. I will continue to post as I see fit. It is your choice if you wish me not to have the same rights as others.
If you feel that you have been unfairly treated, you can ask that my decision be reviewed by the Moderators Panel. Any members (of the Panel) who have contributed to the thread would be expected to recuse themselves so that there is no inherent bias.
This is an interesting video seems as though Christ was just the last of a long line of deity's of about 20 or 30 or so who all had the same characteristics which were derived from the zodiac.
i.e they were all born on 25th Dec, all born of virgin birth, visited by 3 kings, etc etc
Phil
** Let blockheads read what blockheads wrote. Warren Buffett
GODS as we know them are created in time ---a question to ponder ? how can a GOD created in time be real whilst at the same time we claim that Eternity is GOD'S realm ?
the logic may be out of whack here, but how can a problem involving Eternity be solved in a Universe controlled by TIME which in Eternity would not exist ?
If you go from the Jewish/Christian/Moslem angle then GOD had only ONE, repeat ONLY "1" creation -- the "SON" it was the SON whom we are part of that created this universe/reality that we ( all matter) are part of and not GOD , the traditional GODS that we/son worship where created by US/SON .
This is where Gautama the Buddha states that there are no GODS but then implies the overiding rule of " INTENTION " and not Effect
If you wish to get a glimpse of the so called LIGHT then the very first thing you must learn is FORGIVENESS -- and what is FORGIVENESS ? -- well it's NOT the forgiving of SINs done to you by others -- it is NOT SEEING THE SIN in the first place --- the SIN I am seeing is a judgement on my part of how things should be and as opposed to how they are -- very hard lesson to learn , learn part of it in this lifetime if you can .
