Archive through June 22, 2006

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spider

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Post Number: 2172
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Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:09 pm:

TEACHERS

In a formal sense we have all had them, and if you are really astute you know that they are in your life still.

In this country teachers get a bad deal.
On another part of this forum one particular teacher has been coping it big time, so I thought it was time to put the spot light on teachers and see what we all think on this subject.

SPIDER.......the early years
When I was a little tacker I had one stand out teacher amongst a sea of ordinary ones.
I always found primary school fun (probably because the class sizes were so huge there were plenty of chances to get away with stuff), but my enjoyment rarely had much to do with what went on inside a classroom, except for grade three.

Our grade three teacher had a talent for making every kid feel special.

High School on the other hand was a lot less fun, but it did teach me how to fight and how to run, both skills were necessary to survive in my neighbourhood.

I had a couple of outstanding high school teachers, one actually managed to make economics seem interesting!

TEACHERS IN THE TRADING ARENA

Why do some people have such an intense dislike for those that offer trading courses?

This is a commercial venture, and if they don't deliver then they don't survive, so why the animosity?

Does this negative vibe date back to people's school days?

It has been said that these courses only rehash the information that can be found in books.
I don't see the problem.
Many people need a personal, face to face, environment in which to learn, and these courses offer that environment.

Now, we here at IC know that this is the best place to get that info, but not everyone knows about IC.

All intelligent opinions are welcome.

spider.

ingot54

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:56 am:

Excellent topic, Spider.

I think the ill-feeling might come from the Aussie paranoia about getting ripped off, getting a fair go etc.

A lot of feed-back drifts down at times, from those who have done courses, but then find they could have discovered the same things on IC. Or feel that the info was overpriced.

I have never done any courses, but I have the impression that often there is a requirement to use the software, data-feed etc offered by the people running the course, in order to continue trading using the method taught. That would take away some choice.

In this day and age, "instant coffee" is the go - we don't want all the bits that slow us down. We want to take it and run. We don't want the software etc - just a quick method.

That's why IC is so good - it's an ongoing course, and the teachers are as close as the keyboard. Members and visitors here know what the IC "course" is, and it is free.

Keep Smiling

david_louisson

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Post Number: 124
Registered: 02-2004

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Votes: 4


Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 04:43 pm:

Hi Spider

I have what I would like to think is a "healthy but not insurmountable skepticism" toward, rather than an "intense dislike" for, those who choose to teach trading as a profession.

My objection lies not with teachers, tuition or systems, but with those whose claims are misleading, creating the impression that astronomical gains are easily and consistently obtainable. Most advertising includes a testimonial page with several "Wow – I doubled my trading account in just two weeks!!" type comments, which panders to the greed of potential buyers, but in the reality of the longer term, proves little.

For me, the question is: "By using your information/system, is it possible for me to make a living by systematically and consistently outperforming the market index, across a balance of all market conditions?" Every system seller must necessarily answer "yes", otherwise the potential customer might as well select the index, and buy-and-hold.

Very few system peddlers advertise the fact that return is proportional to risk (and that both are proportional to the single greatest bottom-line determinant: position size). Astronomical returns tend to be erratic, going hand-in-hand with intolerably large drawdowns, and are the antithesis of prudent trading.

And very few emphasize, at least in their initial eye-catching sales pitch, the enormous impact of psychology, or that trading is a negative sum game in which only the most disciplined ultimately survive, let alone beat the index.

If (as has been suggested elsewhere) it's the expert 10%-20% who ultimately take money from the less expert 80%-90%, then the former must be doing exceptionally well, and one buys a system on the assumption that vendors – especially those making extravagant claims – have the necessary knowledge and experience to be part of this elite group. This begs the question: why are they not trading their way to financial freedom by generating the exponential gains promised by their own systems? Why are they bothering to sell their valuable secrets, for a modest return by comparison, and then additionally troubling themselves with the administrative hassle of supporting newbie traders?

I agree that the life of a con-artist's commercial venture may be short, but alas, like the initiator of a pyramid scheme, he has the potential to take a lot of innocent punters down with him.

Another poster on this forum makes an arguably valid point: that a basic trading methodology is simple, and that the market is sufficiently fickle as to make variations in execution largely irrelevant. Most (trend following) systems espouse the same fundamental principles: buy into a strong trend that's resuming following a pullback, trade with the backing of the overall market, cut losses short by setting a stop, let profits run by trailing the stop, size positions according to the 2%/6% rule. His argument is why pay for this information when it is all available for free? Of course I realize that there are some who are happy to pay to have the reassurance and "backup" of an experienced mentor, and personally I have no problem with that.

I also realize that there are genuinely knowledgeable, experienced businesspeople whose advertising is less sensationalist, and offer the possibility of more modest, and perhaps realistic, returns. And also that (analogously) some sports coaches aren't necessarily medal winning athletes themselves, for their talent lies in strategic planning, in communicating technique, in motivation.

To me, then, the dilemma facing the uninitiated newbie is this: there is a vast sea of information out there, and s/he must somehow make the decision as to whose is potentially genuine, and whose is not. And even if s/he gets this right, the markets offer no mathematical certainty: most buyers who end up losing their bankroll will probably never know the extent to which it was the system they purchased, their own ill-chosen decisions or indiscipline, or simply misfortune, that undid them. At the end of the day, the hard lessons learned from one's own trading experience offer the most genuine, telling, and personally relevant, tuition of all.

Caveat emptor
David

deanrosario

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Post Number: 755
Registered: 11-2002

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Votes: 1


Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:00 am:

Spider - a good thought-provoking thread that should promote lively discussion.

Teachers in general

Yes, it is, indeed, sad that our society does not value - either in monetary terms or in prestige - the noble art of teaching.

I say "art" because to me teaching is an art. I agree with David, that the "best and the brightest" in a given field rarely make the best teachers.

I've often wondered why, then I realised it's because a good teacher is able to empathise with those who are struggling with basic skills - be it solving the equation "x + 2 = 3"; or kicking a football. The "best and the brightest" are often unable to comprehend why someone else can't do something that comes so easily to them.

Unlike you, my school days are definitely amongst the happiest days of my life, and my closest friends are the boys with whom I went to secondary school.

Whilst our teachers were often harsh - yes, we grew up in a time when corporal punishment was the norm - it was, more often than not, totally deserved.

In fact, a testament to the respect we have for our teachers can be summed up by a recent event.

In 1976, we first met a 24 year-old teacher who became a mentor to us all.

Not only was he was a brilliant footballer and cricketer; but he was also a brilliant mathematics' teacher.

Yes, there may be many such teachers out there, but this guy stood out because he was, and still is, a Christian Brother!

Anyway, this guy recently decided to go to Tanzania and live with and teach some of the poorest people in the world.

He recently wrote an e-mail bemoaning the "lack of form being shown by the Aussies in England" and ended by describing how distressed and helpless he he felt amongst the poverty surrounding him.

Within a week a group of guys from my old Form I class got together at a pub in the city and raised over $3,000, which we sent to him in Africa.

Needless to say, he was "blown away" and wrote back saying how he could now "buy crayons, paper, pens, pencils, etc." for his kids. He also asked whether it would be ok for some of the money to be given to the local nun, who wanted to purchase sugar - not because the kids wanted a treat, but because it could be added to their one daily meal to provide necessary carbohydrates!

So, what do teachers mean to me ...???

Like my parents, my secondary school teachers, in particular, have made me the man - for better and worse - that I am today.

Teachers in trading

David sums my thoughts up perfectly!

Regards
Dean

"It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong." George Soros

spider

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Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 06:39 pm:

Thanks to those that have contributed so far.

deano,
my football coach at primary school was a Good Samaritan nun.
She could kick a footy about as far as most blokes.
My high school teachers were Marist brothers, and I remember us having more than a friendly rivalry with the Christian brothers' schools.

My junior football career included many excellent coaches (who were also teachers).
I was lucky enough to be apart of the first team (in the 30 year history of our school)from an academic stream to defeat a team from the technical (trades) stream.
I was also part of the first team to beat Assumption college in a football final!

For me it all started with a nun who was determined to teach the kids how to play footy.

My football coach/teacher from high school died a few years back in an accident, and even though I had not seen him in a while I was saddened at his passing.

These people that touch our lives in such a positive way, are priceless.

spider.

spider

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Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 04:46 pm:

PUT THE WOMAN DOWN

Two monks were traveling together in a heavy downpour when they came upon a beautiful woman in a silk kimono who was having trouble crossing a muddy intersection. “Come on”, said the first monk to the woman, and he carried her in his arms to a dry spot. The second monk didn’t say anything until much later. Then he couldn’t contain himself anymore. “We monks don’t go near females,” he said. “Why did you do that?”
“I left the woman back there,” the first monk replied. “Are you still carrying her?”

For a very long time the IC forum was an oasis for TA traders. We had spirited discussions and often disagreed, but always the discussions were about TA.

Then things began to change.
My Zen master would laugh if he heard me say that, of course things change, they always do, and they always will. Only a fool would resist change.

So, call me a fool. My path to enlightenment is a long one, but I am enjoying the journey.

The TA vs FA debate that flares up so very often is truly boring!

I cannot believe that I get sucked into it every time.

If people want to mix the two, or stand on their head in a bucket of @#$%, I could not care less.

I know from experience that it is mostly (but not completely) a formula for disaster, but again I don’t care, so long as some of their money ends up in my pocket, what the heck.

So why do I do it?

Because it seems so obvious to me, and so often I just sit here and bite my tongue while people who are supposed to be experienced traders, spout nonsense. Eventually it gets to me and I have to try and put the record straight.

Of course I am wasting my time.

What usually happens is that the people that I have respect for because I know that they are able to do the impossible and mix TA and FA get insulted, which is never my intention, while our resident half wits seize on the occasion to turn the debate into a character assassination session, which we saw just recently with the attacks on CC.

Generally speaking, most people miss the point that mixing the two successfully is like expecting every team to have an Andrew Gaze or a Michael Jordan, where the reality is that these are exceptional athletes who only come along once in a generation.

This seems to me to be an endless cycle, and as more and more people come to IC from defunct or failing forums, the problem is only going to increase.

This forum will probably never get back to the way it was and that’s sad, but it will continue to evolve which is the way it should be, and I look forward to being a part of that evolution.

This post is a way for me to ‘put the woman down’, and move on from this.

It seems that the irritating dipsticks will always be with us and I have to learn to live with that.

Spider.

P.S. If you disagree with anything in this post, keep it to yourself, for I am not interested in opening a debate, the subject is closed.

captain_chaza

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Post Number: 1729
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Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 06:32 pm:

MINDFULNESS?

Ahoy 1st Mate Spids?
Most people I know think that I am C-R-A-Z-Y!
capn

PS Try on some SIOUX shoes
Not Italian but German!
But who cares? Not me!

"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.

"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893

"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897

pwnitat0r

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Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 09:14 pm:

Deep buddy, real deep...

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

I've been wrestling, boxing and doing Mixed Martial Arts for a while now...

I've learnt so much when I occasionally take the time to teach people. Most of the time I don't do this because I have 101 things to work on with my own game, so I don't exactly feel qualified to do when I see so many holes in my own game which need fixing up... however, as a senior student I should probably undertake the responsibility a bit more often.

However, I'm now starting to realise that when I take the time out to help people with their technique and concepts.. their game improves, which increases the competition for me and forces me to look for new ways to improve my game and make improvements, etc. The whole way of progressing in combat sports is feeding off continuos and increased competition, sparring and working with as many different people as you can.

In sparring, you could just towel someone and give them an absolute beating by fighting a few levels above them... really instil some FEAR into them, get that adrenalin pumping through them and leave them absolutely shattered at the end of the sparring session. But, they don't learn a great deal from that.. they gain very little from those kind of beatings.

It is the truly insecure and arrogant people who dish out the beatings to people they're better than. What does it achieve? It achieves nothing in the greater scheme of promoting learning and bettering oneself and others, which is the goal.

Sparring a level just above the person so that you're pushing them 100%, but not too fast and working your technique, new things, etc. ... sparring down on a level so that they can be competitive with you is great. They get so much from the sparring, even if they think they're getting closer to you skillwise than what they really are, it doesn't matter.

They don't have to know how good you are, the main thing is you help and foster their learning because they in time come to understand just what you have done for them and it'll be their turn to do it one day. Plus, their progress will force you to lift your game which is reason enough to do it alone... we learn the most when we take the time to teach others, not make them feel completely useless or incompetent. :-)

gohard

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Post Number: 359
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Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:29 am:

pwnitator,

Nice opening post to the forum,must give credit where it is due,unable to give vote as you are in the early stages of introduction.Forum rules require 10 posts I think!!!!
Well done,and welcome.

PS what does your user name mean????
Good trading
Have fun G

spider

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Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:07 pm:

Just in case you missed it..................................
Melbourne Tigers are champions for 2006, denying Sydney their fourth championship in a row.

ingot54

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Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:18 pm:

Wasn't wasted on me - I watched the Brisbane Bullets (my old team) get beaten in the final 10 mins in late 1980's by the Kings, at Boondall, Brisbane.

The Bullets had lead at every quarter.

Any enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine ...

melbourne_Tigers

Keep Smiling

Trading style :CFD's predominantly. Looking for ways to enter CFD trading over long term.

wanabe1

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Post Number: 359
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Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 07:54 am:

Spider, great one!

Adding salt to a wound? Being denied the 4th time hurts. Hopefully it's not a fatal blow to the Kings' confidence.

Was about to report your reminder for fan abuse.
On second thought, decided to leave that option for the more serious stuff(i.e. badgers and badgering).

To the Tigers' fans, OK enjoy it!
Ok! Congratulations!

Regards,

spider

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Monday, May 22, 2006 - 01:42 pm: