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ASX300 Advance - Decline Line

Chart Forum » Markets » ASX300 Advance - Decline Line

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Archive through May 27, 2005perler5959 27-May-05  08:57 pm
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perler59
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A-D_2005-06-03.gif


Lack of discipline ends trading careers far more efficiently than lack of knowledge.

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perler59
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Lack of discipline ends trading careers far more efficiently than lack of knowledge.

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hailoh
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Hi Perler

Am I reading things into the Adv/Dec charts posted on your very handy Toowoomba site? The ASX50 peak appears to be at a resistance line drawn across recent peaks and the other plots are also stalling.

Yesterday I noticed 19 stocks in Stage 4 (150dMA<50dMA)I have been following all showed falls from recent resistance levels marking pullbacks in the declining trend.

Looks like time to at least be airing the shorts again.


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perler59
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Hello Hailoh :-)

My interpretation is that the ASX_50 is having a rest after the recent steep rise, while XMD and XSO are still looking good. ASX_50 may burst forth with renewed vigour shortly? After XJO touches the (very steep) recent trend line? Just my wishful thinking perhaps?

If A-D_XSO rolls over and then makes a lower high, look out! :-)

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Lack of discipline ends trading careers far more efficiently than lack of knowledge.

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perler59
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So much for XJO resistance at 4267 ZOOM!
A-D_2005-06-17.gif


Lack of discipline ends trading careers far more efficiently than lack of knowledge.

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volvodriver
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I guess with 45% of the ASX200 rally due to 17 of its component stocks the narrowness of the rally is quite evident. The broader market's advance decline looks weak against the others but is there any history of previous fast rallies like this one and how the broader market advance decline reacted after the initial 30 odd days rally.


Don't Die Wondering

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ken
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Volvodriver,

This rise is in Elliott Wave terms a fifth wave, and a characteristic of 5th waves is that they are narrow. 3rd waves are broad advances.

The last 5th wave finished with the tech wreck in 2000 (this one is a couple of degrees lower) and its narrowness featured the "new economy" stocks but with little gain on other stocks.

What are the 17 stocks you refer to and what camps do they fall into? We know the largest stocks have the greatest impact on an index but is oil the dominant theme, or are there others in your reckoning?

Thanks,

Ken


Price is the leader of the market crowd. (Elder)
Members of the crowd follow the leader and experience the same emotions as each other.
To be independent of the crowd we must not change our behaviour with price.

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volvodriver
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The 17 ASX200 stocks and approximate no of corresponding points is as follows:

BHP 49
WPL 13
MBL 12
RIN 11
Newscorp 9
CBA 9
TLS 8
WDC 8
MIG 7
WOW 7
WES 6
RIO 6
TAH 5
QBE 5
ANZ 5
WBC 5
NCM 5

Guess the spread is pretty general


Don't Die Wondering

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perler59
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Ouch! The good news may be that history shows that big declines are preceded by a warning from the A-D line, and this time there was no warning... http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/ad_xko_historical.gif
A-D_2005-06-24.gif


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starboard_tack
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Hi Perler,

I wonder though if the XSO and XKO have been giving this warning? The other two have been able to get back up to their previous high, but XKO, and especially XSO, have not been able to keep up. A possible warning that this last upleg was very much favoured by the "safer" stocks?

Regards,
Starb'd


"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats"
Water Rat to the Mole in "The Wind In The Willows"

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perler59
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Dragged up during the afternoon today by the top 50...
A-D_2005-07-01.gif


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perler59
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Hmm. Was that a double top we just had or is the market about to reverse up and make a double bottom in an uptrend? There's quite a divergence between the A-D lines and XJO.

A-D_2005-07-08.gif


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perler59
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Come on market. Make up your mind already
A-D lines still looking bearish.
A-D_2005-07-15.gif


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rederob
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perler
altho the crystal ball is always hazy i sneakily suspect that the Oz market will have a good turnaround nearer reporting time
apart from higher oil prices (and expensive petrol) plus a slightly weaker housing market, there is not much to be concerned about
i believe our commodity producers will deliver exceptional results, likely all time records in many cases
and that there will be a reasonable follow thru from other sectors
i tend to have a bearish view on markets as a rule, but i really can't think of too much that will cause Oz to self destruct or tumble near-medium term
so, perler, i look forward to a triple top soon


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perler59
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Rederob, how right you are :-)
Archer's Cup and Handle scenario looks like a good bet. A pullback that respects new support near 4300 (XJO) would be most excellent.

A-D_2005-07-22.gif


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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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perler59
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hilarius
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Hi Perler

Wasn't everyone expecting the end of the bull market in April?

What happened to that collective bit of wisdom?

Hilarius


I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities

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perler59
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Hilarius,

I think we both know that collective wisdom, when applied to the markets, is a dangerous thing


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hilarius
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Hi Again Perler

So is there a way we can trade AGAINST the collective wisdom?

Is collective wisdom always wrong ... and how do we tell when it is most wrong?

I well remember a Forum member posting a long portfolio at the trough of the April pessimism and doing very well

Hilarius


I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities

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perler59
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Hilarius,

Very good questions, as always :-)
US traders are fond of such things as extreme readings in the 10 day moving average of the put/call ratio to pick bottoms. It is well known that when the most punters are the most bearish (buying puts), the market turns up...

Perhaps we could try "When the momentum index plunges below -6, buy, Buy, BUY!!" (and pray :-) ).


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hilarius
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Perler

As I'm a super green learner of indicators could you please direct me to this momentum index of which you speak?

Still haven't graduated past Bollingers, GMMAs, MA crossovers and higher highs and lows ... and of course Twiggs Money Flow :-)

Fraternally and prayerfully

Hilarius


I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities

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perler59
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Hilarius,
To calculate the All Ords momentum index I do this:

1) For each of the last 150 trading days, calculate the difference between the % of stocks which closed up and the % of stocks which closed down (from the previous close). This produces a list of 150 numbers which range from +100 to -100.

2) Calculate the weighted moving average of that series of numbers.

The results are posted in this thread each Friday and here by 17:30 on trading days:
http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/momentum_aord.html
Also as metastock data here:
http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/momentum_aord.txt


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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hilarius
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Perler

Nice momentum chart !!!

Have you tried overlaying it on the All Ords chart ?

Would there be interesting divergences ... or do both turn together?

Probably a dumb question, but hey dumb is what we do best at the Friary

Hilarius


I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities

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perler59
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Hilarius, the divergences are interesting. Notice the lower high in January/2005 which gave a very early warning of the weakness to come. In the last few weeks when some here have been calling a top, the Momentum line has been confirming the continuation of the trend.


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hailoh
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Hi Perler,

Which divergences do you find most reliable as indicators?

From time to time I have plotted divergences in TMF, MACD crossovers, MACD curves at their extremities and MACD histograms against weekly and daily price movements and the results have been mixed - easy to find useful leads after the event (good old hindsight) but I keep thinking that if I understood the underlying constructions better, I would also be more confident with a given signal.

If you have comments, they might be better posted under a new thread?


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perler59
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Hailoh,

I like market internals like A-D data. MACD/RSI etc are good for boosting the confidence enough to pull the trigger, but not much more than that :-)


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perler59
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rederob
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Dear Perler
I scrolled through this thread to see comments along the way.
Given the rising tide and the collective wisdom noting a bull market period underway, hilarius points to the notion of betting on the opposite in the medium term.
Archer notes the steepness of ascent/descent and directional changes.
Looking at the above chart I can see slight rounding of the present top, suggesting a change of direction within a few months.
Is it possible to overlay a "smoothed" average of tha A-D lines to try and see if such a tool can give early pointers.
Just an idea.
Many thanks for maintaining this great thread.


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ittrader
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Now what would be interesting is to have a look at some sort of correlation of the AD as a predictor of the All Ords, over the last 10 years or so


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perler59
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RedeRob, you can download the data in metastock ASCII format from my home page and add any sort of smoothing you like in any charting program which can import the files. I'm not going to panic until I see a lower high.

ItTrader. 10 years of A/D data would be nice to play with. Its a bit tricky because the list of top 500 would have to change at least each year.


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ittrader
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Hi Perler

Yes im aware that the top 500 would change, I once tried to back derive the top 250 index from market caps the but got some very strange (and wrong) results.

Its just that to have high levels of confidence it would need to be tested in different market conditions over a longer period. But using the AD is one of the best sounding theories around, and your charts are much appreciated.


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perler59
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The top 50 are holding up the market. Perhaps the top few :-)
A-D_2005-09-30.gif
momentum_aord_2005-09-30.gif


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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rederob
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Dear Perler
I did look at those numbers at your website - fraid my 'puter skills need a major revamp to do as you suggested.
Nevertheless, apart from the ASX50 most other sectors dipped a bit over the week and further suggest a topping out is getting closer (as I see it) as the "rounding" is more clear this week.
Time to be more cautious.


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perler59
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Instructions for loading XAO A-D data from my site into a charting program.

(Internet Explorer Version)
Go to http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/
Right-click on "ad_aord.txt".
Select "Save Target As".
Save the file and remember where it is :-)
Open your charting program which understands metastock ASCII data.
Import the file you just saved.
Note that you may have to tell your charting program that the date is in the format "YYYYMMDD"
Once the data has been imported, look for a new symbol called "AD_AORD"

I don't actually use Metastock, so I'm copying the data format from the data format of the free end of day data on this site: http://www.stideas.com/ASX%20Historical%20Data.htm

The same procedure can be used for the momentum index.
The momentum index symbol is "^WM_AORD"


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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kate
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Today's Age, article by Marcus Padley - The top 7 performing stocks in the ASX100 (BHP,RIO,ANZ,MBL,WPL,RIN,?)during September accounted for 60% of total market performance. The reason, institutions moving out of bonds and into equities due to inflationary fears(due to oil price).


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captain_chaza
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Ahoy Kate

I don't read newspaper print
But
How could anyone leave out LHG NCM ZFX?

Hmm
Back to the Chart room for me

capn


"While we stop and think, we often miss our opportunity." Publilius Syrus, 1st century B.C.

"I believe the future is only the past again, entered through another gate."
Sir Arthur Wing Pinero 1893

"There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: When he can't afford it, and when he can." Mark Twain, 1897





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kate
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Captain C

I've no idea where he gets his numbers. What he confirms is a trend I've been watching, the big money is pretty stock specific, the big and "mid tier" commodity companies and a few specific industrials. I only buy into good charts with loads of volume.
Bear in mind this is all based on gut feeling and I've nothing to back it up.

Kate


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smallworld
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The following are the best 10 stocks with the highest increase in Capital in the last 6 months



and the worst




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perler59
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A-D_2005-10-07.gif
momentum_aord_2005-10-07.gif


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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rederob
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perler
the previous 2 end-week charts painted a clear picture of a possible top and turn, but not a precipice to fall off
thank you for the advice on how to construct my own "average" chart from your site - i will look at that as a xmas present to my frail 'puter skills


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perler59
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Rederob,
No, there wasn't much warning. The look of the XSO and XAO A-D lines on Monday night was enough to get me out on Tuesday morning.

My current thinking is that because the sell-off has been so sharp, with so little warning, it may be very short lived. I also may be far too optimistic! :-)


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willow
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Quoting Weinstein, If the divergence takes place over a short period of time (several weeks) the decline is likely to turn out to be a correction within an ongoing bull market. If however, the negative divergence continues to take shape over a long period of time (several months), that's a problem. (is 11 months classed as several months?)

Quoting Murphy, While the negative divergence in the daily line may warn of short to intermediate problems in the market, it's necessary to also show a similar divergence in the weekly AD line to confirm that a more serious problem is developing. (Does this mean we also need a divergence in the daily simultaneiously?)

Quoting Elder, if the stock market reaches a new peak but the A/D line reaches a lower peak than during the previous rally, it shows that fewer stocks are participating, and the rally may be near it's end. (weekly chart shows this)

If we put all this to-gether and use the weekly A/D line as John Murphy suggests then we have a lower peak now because the AD lines peak occured in November last year during this bull market and I notice it has made a lower low also, in short the AD line is not running on par with our market and a divergence on the weekly looks to have taken place for quite some time now, but after viewing the AD line when corrections have taken place I would expect to see a more recent minor divergence as well before an end. The problem is I haven't enough detail or information on how to interpret this. Anyone else got some clues?. Regards Willow.


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willow
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When I wrote the above post I was viewing a A/D line from another site and I notice the one of Perlers above does show a minor divergence and it also shows that the xao topped in January and not November as to what I was previously viewing. A minor divergence of some type is what I was expecting to see. I use this other site because it is overlaid over the all-ords but I'm beginning to think it is not an accurate representation of the A/D line. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused, all the same doesn't this paint an ominous picture going on the above quotes and is this telling us to be prepared and to also look for what other indicators are saying. I am interested in how others are viewing the A/D line in regards to the longer term statements made in the above posts. Regards Willow.

Time soon to spend some time and check out Perlers site and see if I can get this information in my software. I thankyou again Perler.


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perler59
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Willow,
You're welcome. I read your AD line interpretation notes with a building sense of alarm. The XSO AD line is particularly alarming.


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hailoh
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Willow, I have been looking for ages for a site where I can see the A-D line plotted against an index, DOW, S&P, XAO whatever. Perler has done a great job posting the A-D Momentum curve on this web site and here and is to be commended for his work.

I too, have noted the way divergences enter into the trend analyses of so many commentators, but I find placing the divergence as it unfolds into a time frame very difficult.

Noting the above comments about the XSO, I have posted the 10 years of XSO weekly available on IC against the RSI and plotted a number of divergences. At first sight, when a divergence on the RSI peaks at and then respects the upper 70% line there have been subsequent sharp falls in the index. At present there is a divergence (still in progress) so if the recovery from the current correction peaks higher on the XSO, but at the RSI 70 line, should we begin to get really nervous?

I balk at getting too carried away with this sort of indicator without knowing what is going on behind the scenes. Is there a correlation in some way between RSI and A-D that would make the interpretation more precise?

Over to you.

XSO and RSI weeekly


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willow
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Hello Hailoh, for me not having the A/D line with enough data or the A/D momentum to check it out thoroughly on my software doesn't help.
About divergence of indicators though, I need other signs than solely anticipating a move using divergence because of the amount of times it can happen before a move and failures, and I like to see more than just one indicator set at the one time span showing a divergence, one day that one indicator will leave a trader holding a bundle of unwanted stocks and missed moves, I have 4 rsi indicators set at different time spans 3 are showing divergence for the XSO while respecting equilibrium (one to a certain degree)which I set at 50 for longer time frames and all are above or very recently above over bought territory but I still want more evidence such as a beak in a trendline of price and we have that now but there is still a longer term line to penetrate yet, the large move Wednesday is also evidence and was the day I chose to act using all the other evidence available.
I'm looking at extremes and divergences from this chart I've posted showing various indicators and the ROC set at different time spans. The large move Wednesday and the penetration of the steep trend line as well was enough for me to say good-bye to the long side for a while. I hope this helps. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say where I view the a\d line. Regards Willow.

xaoa


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willow
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Hailoh, On what I said about the rsi, for the longer time spans I meant for it to mean that 50 is how I view it. I disregard the default 30/70 readings and just have the equilibrium 50 line to guide me plus my own lines for overbought and oversold. After reading my own post I thought it didn't sound right. The longer time spans rarely reach 30 or 70. The shorter time spans have more chance of showing divergences and the 14 week that you used has proven to be reliable in the previous times, I like the indicator to remain above equilibrium and most time in the outer parameters when a divergence occurs, also a thing to remember is in bearish times these outer parameters will rarely be reached and will need adjusting, there will be times also when the rsi will not show divergence when other indicators are. Regards Willow.


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hailoh
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Willow, thanks for your comments. I'll just sit and watch and let you know know if I smell a situation developing.


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willow
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Hailoh, I won't be checking forums out for a while so I may not reply. If you are willing to put your email address on the forum soon I can email you where to go to view what you wanted.
Many people think oscillators say the same thing and only need to use one or two. I prefer to use more than one or two, the price oscillator and the ROC gave me more confidence than the rsi in the above charts. Using different timeframes and oscillators can show a head and shoulders on one, a trendline break on another, not to mention the other uses, put this with a price pattern or break in trend of price and one has a reasonably effective tool. Reading momentum is an art and takes time to master and I believe Martin Pring is a master of momentum and his book can tell you more than what my short experience in the market can. I'll keep an eye out for your post in the next couple of days if you want the name of the site. Only need to post if you want it. Regards Willow.


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perler59
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I think the A-D lines are warning of another leg down. They are looking like they did in mid to late April this year.


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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XSO is consolidating higher relative to XJO. Does this mean anything? The A-D data is looking less bearish than XJO (XTO) too. Hmm.

A-D_2005-10-14.gif
momentum_aord_2005-10-14.gif


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perler59
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This is interesting too.
Percentage of AORD stocks above their 150 day moving average.

PC_Bull.gif


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perler59
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A-D_2005-10-21.gif
momentum_aord_2005-10-21.gif
PC_Bull.gif


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perler59
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Everything still pointing down :-(
http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/3.html


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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Next time I make a posting as negative as last week, someone tell me to buy! LOL :-)

XSO is starting to follow the big boys UP.

http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/3.html


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perler59
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I've added a chart of the percentage of stocks in the All Ords making one year new highs and lows. The data is rather erratic, so I've smoothed it with a 5 day weighted moving average. Whether it adds any enlightenment is not yet clear.

http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html


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perler59
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After some hesitation the small caps are once again joining in the rally. The number of stocks making one year highs is trending up steeply now. We're very near the old top and due for a bit of sideways action to set the width of the new channel. The ever increasing divergence between the A-D lines for the large caps and small caps concerns me.

http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html


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perler59
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A week of consolidation. Less new highs. More new lows, but the number of stocks trading above their 150 day moving average increased. The A-D line for XSO is still looking sick :-(

http://sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html


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perler59
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Less new highs. More new lows. Lower top in momentum index.
Where oh where is the Christmas Rally? Perhaps it will start on Monday :-)


http://sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html


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perler59
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I repeat my comments from last week, but this afternoon I
think I heard some jingle bells in the distance


http://sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html


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gizzard
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My first post on this thread but I am happy to do so if only to give it a 'bump'. Firstly, a huge thanks to Perler for his momentum site and graphs....fantastic.

The reason I found them was that I am getting just a little edgy about all this momentum in the All Ords and wanted to know where there were some momentum graphics that could be checked like the A-D line. I didn't know that would lead me to Perler's site with all that info.
http://gw.sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html

Having got there, what am I seeing as a novice to these graphs?
3 of the 4 A-D's have certainly flattened out, the exception being the ASX50. This is similar to the scenario last March when the ASX50 continued to have a supported A-D line while the rest of the market declined.

The percentage 1 Year Highs is definitely heading down and the Lows up. This should be watched for any cross-over.

The AORD Momentum graph is relatively flat and has been in a side-ways pattern for about 6 months. A new bottom might be forming which would give a nice 3 point upward trend line through the 3 lows.

The AORD & Bull is also moving sideways.

So, how do I interpret all of that?
It seems that while the All Ords itself steams ahead the momentum indices are not following with the same gusto. They are not particularly negative but they are certainly not supporting the current movement in the All Ords.

I see no reason start closing positions but not a lot of indication that it's a good time to open new ones.

How would others, with more experience than myself, interpret the graphs?


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perler59
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Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 08:48 am:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Hi Gizzard.

McLaren may help.
http://www.mclarenreport.com.au/yvs500/CMSdisplaypages.asp?id=1&cat=Free+CNBC+Re ports

It looks to me like we are setting up for something similar to last March. Before this ends, I think we'll see a commodity driven mania with very high PEs. Could be just wishful thinking too :-)


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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I stopped posting to my Advance/Decline thread when a bout of slackness overcame me last Christmas. Its updated every afternoon after close of trading and is here: http://www.sttc.net.au/~stever/4.html now in a glorious width of 800 pixels :-)


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ingot54
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Perler

I, for one, would like to thank you very much for the effort you have put in here over quite a period of time. I know for sure many members did follow the A/D line as a part of remaining informed of the trends.

Especially of interest to me was the visual comparison of the relative performance of specific indices.

The evidence for this was in the commentary which was generated on the thread, at strategic (perceived) times - eg April to June 2005 - in the past.

Thank you for the link. Because I use OPERA for my browser, I can permanently leave the link insitu as a TAB, as well as having the address saved in "Favourites" - for emergency reference.

Now all I need to do is log on, open the tab, and click the "Refresh" icon - Voila! - an updated version of Perler's A/D line comparison for ASX50 - XMD - XSO - AORD - instantly.

All good, as Snorter would say!


Keep Smiling

Trading style :CFD's predominantly. Looking for ways to enter CFD trading over long term.

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perler59
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Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 04:00 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



The A-D line has made two lower highs while the index has made higher highs in a widening wedge pattern. Things could soon get ugly with a breakdown out of the wedge ... The pattern reminds me of January 2005.


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 09:46 am:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Well, that didn't take long to come true!


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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tony_m
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Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 10:30 am:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



With the undoubted financial acumen of GW Bush to help. I wonder if the US has finally realised that with a huge underlying budget deficit and printing money on the sly to boot, that raising interest rates demonstrably wont halt inflation.

Ouch....Tony_M


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perler59
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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 07:55 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Storm Warning! Lower High on red and cyan lines.

http://www.sttc.net.au/~stever/ad_aord.html


http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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The growing divergence between XAO and its Advance-Decline line warns of a market top, the decline from which COULD be beginning today. There are no absolutes, just high probabilities :-)







http://sttc.net.au/~stever

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perler59
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Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 07:22 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Slight change of URL:

http://gw.ttc.net.au/~stever/


http://ttc.net.au/~stever
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