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On the Dark Side

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ann
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Young Oklahoma mother; age 18, penniless, stranded in Imperial Valley, California. (Circa March 1937)


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Arkansas squatter for three years in California near Bakefield, California. Photo by D. Lange. (Circa 1935)


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Depression:Unemployed: Typical picture capturing the number of people who were unemployed and looking for a job. (Circa 1935)


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msparks
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Hi Ann


Bad day at the supermarket eh ?


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ann
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.
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.
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..........................................AND STILL IT CONTINUES ..........





From your 'touchy feely' resident bleeding heart. I just thought I would say it first, saving some of you the trouble.

I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty or spoil anything, nor am I suggesting you do anything differently....just think about it first please, there is a human side.

This is NOT aimed at anyone in particular. Most of you havn't got the guts like Spider and Scarrie to come out and disagree with me to my face. This is for those that hide behind the 'one star' of disdain.


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ann
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The Reality of Poverty
Peter Ellingsen
Reviewer
August 23, 2003

Modern Australia sees poverty as the result of individuals' failures, not society's.

The Lowest Rung: Voices of Australian Poverty
By Mark Peel
Cambridge University Press, $37.95

The poor will always be with us, but not in the same way. They keep changing. They used to be deserving, then they became demanding. In the 1980s they were an alienated underclass, now they are no class at all, just a statistic upon which few can agree. The poor, though, are a measure of individual, not societal, failure.

At least, that is the current fashionable view. But how did it arise, and why does being poor mean different things at different times? It is an intriguing question, and one that requires lateral thinking seldom seen among combatants in the poor wars. Maybe it is because the debate is waged from entrenched bunkers, with open wounds rather than open minds. Something like this was suggested by Clive Hamilton in his recent book, Growth Fetish. Now, Monash University historian Mark Peel has taken the pity out of poverty, and thought about the setting that frames it.

The Lowest Rung: Voices of Australian Poverty is based on 300 interviews with people in three struggling towns; Broadmeadows, in Melbourne's northwest; Inala, outside Brisbane; and Mt Druitt, a housing commission suburb in Sydney's west. It is a mix of oral history and reflection, but what makes it different is an avoidance of conventional wisdom and clarity about what privation might mean.

While not the poetry of Henry Lawson, some of Peel's paragraphs have a literary feel. He does not fall into the trap of those intellectuals who measure poverty rather than hear it. By listening to people he discovers that going without is not a neat equation. It means having your adulthood delayed by unemployment, your parenting distorted by low income, and your individuality, and that of your neighbourhood, submerged in an expectation of drab sameness. Poverty in Australia seldom fits the skid-row scenario, stories such as Orwell's spike and starvation on the road. Urban deprivation is more likely to mean being behind, unable to afford what others take for granted.

This is important because it challenges mind-sets, such as the one that says the poor create their poverty by splurging on wasteful things. As Peel's interviews and analysis show, blowing dough on children's toys or a night out is more to do with creating memories than embellishment. But the poor are not supposed to need special moments, and when they grab them, they are condemned.

Why? Is it because research in the field has been preoccupied with measuring poverty, thus detaching it from inequality and the fundamentally unfair structure in which it occurs? Peel seems to think so, arguing that suggesting the poor lack initiative encourages us to focus on what is wrong with them and their decisions, rather than what might be wrong with the context in which those decisions are made. Poverty is made pitiable, not something for which we can identify causes.

Among Peel's poor are the Australian-born who have been displaced from inner suburbs. They are, he says, pushed into poverty by accumulating misfortune; sickness, accidents, retrenchment, or marriage to gamblers. The distance between them and the well-off is not just a financial statement. It is a range of advantages and disadvantages, earned and unearned, and it means they struggle to become normal. But this is not the politics of envy. If the poor grudge the rich anything, Peel says, it is the safe distance they have from disaster.

As a historian, Peel has traced poverty's recent past, exploring how it has been presented, and how the poor perceive themselves. One template he finds is "the heady journalism of disadvantage" of the '70s and '80s when reporters in search of a Badlands story would tell "Broady" teenagers: "You don't look rough enough, pose better." This was part of a myth that required the poor to say of themselves what others said of them. They had to accept the stigma, be deserving of despair.

By 1992, after the Los Angeles riots, then premier Joan Kirner issued what Peel calls "simplistic warnings about an alienated underclass", which the media translated into "Dole Queue Riot Fears".

By the late '90s the focus had shifted to the largely concocted problem of welfare fraud, with 1998 headlines claiming 570,000 people were cheating the system, even though, 99.3 per cent of the overpayments were due to administrative errors.

In favour of managerial answers, governments began at the wrong place, with the idea they could quickly judge causes of someone's poverty without knowing much about them. And through it all, the hard-up had to keep making their lives fit a middle-class model of poverty. That involved learning how to "act poor", with a deserving story, never an angry one, and admitting being broke, but never broken.

Peel wrestles with what he sees and hears, and even though his interviews were done in the mid-'90s and are now out of date, his observations are not. This is in part because his chapters explore timeless themes, with titles such as Loss, Hope and Anger, and partly because he has a talent for sentences that stay in the mind.

His is an interesting book because it investigates what is behind the one in eight people living in poverty in Australia. It shows that the dominant story in poverty, that of the deserving and undeserving, the heroes and villains, is resilient, and emulated by the poor themselves because that is the way others understand disadvantage.

Peel does not like the punishment motif that now marks poverty and wonders why so much is made of welfare fraud, when at most it might cost $15 million a year, while tax avoidance through trusts, which the Federal Government tolerates, costs an estimated $700 million a year. He does not want to slug the rich as much as make them accountable, as he believes the poor have become.

This is not easy when, as he says, "rights have become even more a matter of purchasing power".


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ann
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Albert Einstein:
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.


Albert Schweitzer:
A man is truly ethical only when he obeys the compulsion to help all life which he is able to assist, and shrinks from injuring anything that lives.

Albert Schweitzer:
Ethics, too, are nothing but reverence for life. This is what gives me the fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, promoting, and enhancing life, and that destroying, injuring, and limiting life are evil


Arthur Dobrin:
A Humanist Code of Ethics:
Do no harm to the earth, she is your mother.
Being is more important than having.
Never promote yourself at another's expense.
Hold life sacred; treat it with reverence.
Allow each person the digity of his or her labor.


Barry Lopez:
How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one's culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light.



Buddha:
Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds.


George Bernard Shaw:
Do not do unto others as you would they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same

HH the Dalai Lama:
Consider the following. We humans are social beings. We come into the world as the result of others' actions. We survive here in dependence on others. Whether we like it or not, there is hardly a moment of our lives when we do not benefit from others' activities. For this reason it is hardly surprising that most of our happiness arises in the context of our relationships with others.


Marcus Aurelius:
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.


Marie Ebner von Eschenbach:
Whenever two good people argue over principles, they are both right.

Mark Twain:
Always do right--this will gratify some and astonish the rest.

Shirley Chisholm:
When morality comes up against profit, it is seldom that profit loses.


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ken
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Ann,

Dare I say that depressions are not caused by stockmarket collapses, but that deteriorating economic conditions following booms cause stockmarkets to collapse.

Depressions will occur anyway.

If a market is going to collapse it doesn't matter whether short sellers are operating or not - normal panic selling will cause a crash if stocks are severely overvalued during a boom. Only the speed will be affected.

The stockholders who were ruined were those not using stop losses - for instance the market in 1987 collapsed after it fell 10%, and as it went through the 21 week ema and 30 week WMA. The 200 day ma was far too late.

Ken


Price is the leader of the market crowd. (Elder)
Members of the crowd follow the leader and experience the same emotions as each other.
To be independent of the crowd we must not change our behaviour with price.

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ann
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Sorry Ken, you are missing the point.

This is an exercise in .......thinking.......no more no less.

Thank you for being the first thoughtful poster.

Kind regards
Ann


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A tall poppy left uncut.



SIR EDWARD 'WEARY' DUNLOP

(1907-1993)


Sir Edward Weary Dunlop was a surgeon in the Australian Army during World War Two.

He is legendary for his care of soldiers taken prisoner by the Japanese.

His nickname might have been Weary but his nature certainly wasn't.

Even in the most horrific conditions Weary found energy to fight for the wellbeing and often, the lives of these men.

Weary grew up on farms in country Victoria.

He loved adventures and he liked to prove he was tougher than the rest.

" I used to walk down barefoot and jump on top of my favourite riding horse and round up the horses - it was quite an impressive cavalcade."

Weary was a natural athlete and at school in Benalla, he preferred to play sport than to study.

When he left school Weary took a job in a pharmacy.

But he grew bored with small town life and headed for Melbourne in 1927.

Here Weary took a new career path, and began studying medicine at Melbourne University.

He also played with Australia's national rugby team, The Wallabies, and was a champion boxer.

Soon after graduating Weary took a job as a ship's surgeon and sailed to London.

The next year World War Two broke out.

Weary knew his skills were needed closer to the action.

"I just couldn't get into the army quick enough"

About a year after enlisting in the Australian Army, Weary was sent to Java in Indonesia.

The Japanese had attacked the island, and Weary was needed to help treat the casualties.

But just two weeks after his arrival Japanese troops captured the town where Weary was living.

The prisoners were taken by ship from Singapore to Burma, and then crammed into train carriages for a five day horror ride into Thailand.

The Japanese wanted to build a 421 kilometre long railway from west Thailand into Burma.

The work required physical strength and good tools.

The prisoners had neither.

"I'd see these fellas off at the crack of dawn, just carrying their rice for the day, and then they would drag in any time up until midnight, some of them on their hands and knees."

As a commander, Weary had the awful job of deciding who was fit enough to work.

As a surgeon, he was also the one who patched the men up after their hours of hard labour.

Standing nearly two metres tall, Weary had to stoop as he operated on patients beneath kerosene lamps.

"Weary was never sitting down. He was always on his feet, and his feet were terrible with ulcers. He had all these complaints too, you know. The germs didn't leave him alone."

Weary argued with his captors about making sick men work.

"I'd have all sorts of conspiracies. I'd tell the fellas to start to march, but collapse and I'll grab you."

Former prisoner of War, Bill Griffiths is among the many who owe their lives to Weary.

The Japanese planned to kill him.

What use is a disabled man, it was argued.

Weary stepped in front of the bayonets and refused to move until Bill's life was spared.

A habit of keeping track of the war via a hidden wireless also landed Weary in the firing line.

"I got handcuffed around a tree, my tummy exposed to four bayonets and a countdown. Things were pretty grim." Weary ended up being tortured instead ... but the experience only made him more defiant.

After the war Weary continued to work as a surgeon in Australia and parts of Asia.

In 1969, he was knighted in recognition of his contribution to medicine.

Weary's compassionate nature enabled him to forgive and even meet, some of his former enemies.

In 1993, ten days short of his 86th birthday, Sir Edward Weary Dunlop died.

More than ten thousand people lined the streets of Melbourne for the state funeral of the man they called 'The Surgeon of the Railway'.

"I have a conviction that it's only when you are put at full stretch that you can realise your full potential." If` ever anyone lived life at full stretch, it was Weary






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A tall poppy left uncut.




Fred Hollows AC (1929 – 1993)
1990 Award
Ophthalmologist

A New Zealander, Hollows became involved in the struggle of Aboriginal land rights and better health soon after arriving in Sydney in 1965. In 1971 he helped to set up the first Aboriginal medical centre and in 1976 established the National Trachoma and Eye Health Program which provided treatment to more than 450 remote communities. Hollows also established blindness prevention programs in Asia, Africa and South America. He made several trips to Eritrea to train barefoot doctors to perform simple eye surgery and to help establish a factory to manufacture plastic intraocular lenses. The 'intellectual with the wharfie's manner' became an Australian folk hero, an iconoclast who inspired some and angered other.

Hollows said: 'To my mind, having a care and concern for others is the highest of the human qualities.' He used his tour of honour after the award to argue for an increase in federal aid to developing nations, and for a more energetic approach to youth unemployment. He always tried to challenge people to lead more selfless and dynamic lives.






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A tall poppy left uncut.


Sir Sidney Myer


The Myers of Melbourne
(First screened Monday, 9 December 2002
From the ABC series 'Dynasties'


It is claimed that Myers is Melbourne and today the Myers sit in the front row of Melbourne society. Their collective wealth has grown to more than $600 million. But the Myer story begins a hundred years ago, in 1899, with the arrival of a Russian Jewish refugee, Simcha Baevski, who had only three-pence to his name.

Sidney Myer, as he became known, took up peddling, hawking goods around the Victorian countryside. From these inauspicious beginnings the enterprising Sidney engineered a retail revolution and opened Melbourne's first department store, the Myer Emporium.

The Russian refugee moved quickly through the ranks of society, shocking the stuffy Melbourne establishment with his marriage to Merlyn Baillieu, a debutante 22 years his junior, from one of city's most powerful families. Myer died a millionaire, remembered for his civic leadership and philanthropy, a legacy his descendants would continue.

Today, three generations of the Myer family are still trying to live up to the example of their extraordinary forebear, from his daughter Lady Marigold Southey to his young and idealistic great grandchildren.

In order to avoid 'the deadening hand of affluence', this fourth generation has been the focus of concerted family efforts to involve them in new philanthropic pursuits. Under the guidance of the Myer Foundation, they have been given money to spend on worthy causes. And, in this program, decide to visit and help fund a struggling heroin detox clinic in St Kilda.

This half-hour program introduces the keepers of Sidney Myer's legacy as they endeavour to find fertile ground for their good deeds.




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pilgrim
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Hi Anne.
Are you, doing anything to save the world? or like those names given that I know (don't know them all)lived and live nice comfortable lives themselves, and talk and think and do more talking and thinking and everyone says how wonderful they are, quoting their pearls of wisdom.
I hope putting this stuff up makes you feel like a crusader and gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling?
These are rhetorical questions no need to answer me, ask yourself.
The people in this world doing the most good don't have famous names, they're nobody's, not famous enough to be quoted and not many know the good they're doing.
They don't help because some pseudo intellectual dumps big black clouds of depression on them to make them feel guilty.They quietly get on with what they're doing in their small way and enjoy it, without public recognition.
We all must know this world is a rotten place and it's getting worse,nothing we can do about that, because it's all about our human nature that's rotten to the core.
Nothing the Xspirts can do about it but talk and come up with more ideas for everyone else to do, but they wouldn't lift a finger to put into practise themselves.
Anne if your down "Pick yourself up, dust yourself down and start all over again" and have a nice day.


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ann
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Pilgrim

What a delight to hear from a new face. I am not doing it to get a warm fuzzy feeling. To be honest with you I realize I am probably making myself look quite foolish. I will have to live with it.

You are so right, I have had a tremendous difficulty finding real information on all the good stuff people do. I totally agree with you, I think most people get on with doing the good stuff without dragging attention to their 'good deeds'.

I remember being told about the Smorgen family back in those depression years. They used to give the housewives free meat from their butcher's shop. Or more to the point I believe they let them run up accounts that were never asked to be paid for. I know I won't find information about this. Pilgrim, I think this is a wonderful world except my googling is not getting me some balance for the first half of my postings.

A very wealthy man once said to me, giving should be something from within and not spoken of. My reply was 'Lead by example'.

Pilgrim, I would say that the vast majority of high wealth individuals give an immense amount of their wealth and many give an immense amount of their time.

I should imagine the mere act of selecting from the immense amount of requests would be quite mind blowing.

I am trying to get some more 'tall poppy' types up who have been in business and have not been 'cut down to size'. Not all are going to be overt philanthropists. Just quietly, I bet they are.

You know Pilgrim, you always find what you look for. If you look for all the lousy stuff that is what you will see. I like to find the good in things. I think this world is going to be simply wonderful and not in the too distant future either.

I believe the guy who started the 'Clean up Australia' campaign lost all his money years ago in property investments. From memory he was philosophical about it and said right I am going to do something worthwhile with my life. So that organization is now a worldwide campaign. Three cheers for him.

I read in the Financial Review a couple of weeks back about Richard Pratt From Visy industries putting a lot of money into a new type of cornflour based 'plastic' packaging company called Plantic. I am very pleased to see this, I have been watching Plantic for some time now and hoping they would get their product up and running.

So Pilgrim thank you for popping up like that because all of this is hearsay and not something I could actually do a 'formal' post about.

Please don't feel guilty or depressed, I am just taking longer to get good info. I know I will find it. Just that good news isn't as desirable as bad news!!!!

I always have wonderful days Pilgrim, if they aren't I find out what I am doing wrong and change it. I always do what feels right for me and the end result is always happiness.

I am known as the token 'bored houswife' in this forum, ha, I wish!!

I wish you happiness and a sense of wellbeing always....talk to me again if you want. Yell at me if you want, most people do around here...nothing new, so feel free!!

Cheers
Ann


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ann
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A tall poppy left uncut

Kerry Packer
Born on 17th December, 1937 as the son of publishing tycoon, Sir Frank Packer, he became Australia's richest man and has an estimated worth of A$5.5 billion but at 65 still has no plans to retire despite frequent health scares and operations when he runs his empire that includes Channel Nine TV from his hospital bed. Once his heart stopped beating for seven minutes but where some people awaken with stories of angels, white light and heavenly visions Kerry said: "I've been to the other side and there's nothing f...ing there".
He once was investigated by police and media as he attracted attention by carrying enough cash on him to buy your average Sydney waterfront house but nothing illegal was discovered, he just likes to gamble heavily so that's what the cash was for. Rumours say that once he won $6 million on the 1998 Melbourne Cup won by New Zealand horse, Jezabeel.
He has a son James that took control of one of his businesses late 1990's but after losing $300 million in the OneTel fiasco in only a couple of years Kerry took the reins again.
His Channel Nine TV station was in Alan Bond's hands for a while but he repossesed it again after Bondy couldn't meet payments when things started going downhill a bit.





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ann
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A tall poppy left uncut

Rupert Murdoch
The biggest media mogul in the world today, born in Australian on March 11th, 1931, in Melbourne, and educated in Geelong. Now a U.S. citizen but many regard him as an Australian, he owns Fox Television and three quarters of the Australian news papers and has interests in many forms of communications and owned a large part of Ansett before this collapsed, his personal fortune is estimated at $US7 billion. His empire started with the Adelaide News that he inherited and his global media show now spans every continent, reaching some 2 billion persons.








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ann
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A tall poppy left uncut

Tall girl born on March 29, 1964 in Sydney as Ealanor Gow. who started off modelling swim suits which made her a legend as "The Body" with her measurements of 36-24-35, weight of 58 kg. and 6 ft height. Elle has appeared in all varieties of bikini for her own calendars, Victoria's Secret catalogs and Sports Illustrated. She has also appeared in movies 'Sirens', 'If Lucy Fell', 'Alice', 'Batman & Robin' and 'The Edge' - where she had a small part playing Anthony Hopkin's wife. Elle has her own calender, exercise video and lingerie line called Elle MacPherson Intimates which is Australia's #1 best selling lingerie line with a yearly turnover of $30 million. Founded The Fashion Café with fellow supermodels Claudia Schiffer, Naomi Campbell and Christy Turlington. She has graced the cover of Playboy and her face appears on the front of 8 Caribbean postage stamps. In 2000 she was estimated to be worth about $60 million. At 21 years old, she married Gilles Bensimon (French photographer and Elle magazine's creative director.) They split after Elle became a top supermodel. She has since dated Sean Penn and Tim Jeffries and has had a son, Flynn, with financer Arki Busson in 1998.





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ann
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A tall poppy cut right down to size.

Alan Bond
English born signwriter who formed Bond Corporation in 1959 that started making money with land speculation around Perth. Later in the 1980s expanded into brewing (Swan brewery), television (Channel 9), radio, property development and oil exploration. Made himself very popular with the Australian public when he funded the Australia II, a well designed sailing boat that won the America's Cup , so called because the Yanks would win it every single year, until Alan stepped in that is.
At the height of things in the 1980s he was estimated to be worth around $400 million and he lived a free spending life style buying things like a village in England and $54 million of Van Gogh paintings.
Unfortunately the stockmarket crash of '87 brought a reversal of this trend and his fortunes began to spiral downwards with Bond Corp recording a $980 million loss, which was unheard of in those days.
Receivers moved in to recover assets, sell off what was left and to search for hidden off-shore funds in countries like Switzerland, pretty well all unsuccessful.
In 1992 Bond was charged with criminal dishonesty and spent a few years serving a prison sentence in Casuarina Prison, Western Australia.







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ann
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More tall poppies cut down to size





John Elliott



Christopher Skase




Ray Williams



Rodney Adler


and NOT all tall poppies cut down, have been businessmen




Peter Hollingworth


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spider
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Hi ann,
I hope my comment here are not inappropriate to this thread.

Firstly, thank you for having the courage to post your views.

I would like to know more, as I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say.

Obviously we are on opposite sides of the fence on some of this stuff, but I would be interested to knows your views,

So far I get a lot of what you are trying to put across but some of it confuses me.

Don't worry about being labeled, we all get that at some stage.

I must say that I was a bit surprised to see Murdock and Packer mixed in with 'Weary' Dunlop.


I believe that you cannot help the poor by becoming one of them.
Now that is something to ponder on.


Please don't take this the wrong way, as it is meant as an honest question but, what did you think you were getting into when you decided to buy and sell shares?

Where did you think the money would come from if you made a profit?

Again, thank you for starting this thread (although a name change might be in order).

spider.


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ann
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Hi Spider


Let me ponder for a while.

Just to repeat a quote.


Marie Ebner von Eschenbach:
Whenever two good people argue over principles, they are both right.


Back soon
Ann


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ann
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Back again Spider,

Your comments are never inappropriate to any thread in this forum.

There would be no surprise to know that this thread was inspired by 'Happy Birthday Gordon'. Sadly that thread is now virtually unreadable since silly wombat messed up the thread with his side by side cartoons. Pity management haven't seen fit to fix it. There is some interesting discussion from many contributors, on an important subject.

In it I saw you as quite different to the person I have come to know, over the past year from the meetings. Yes, you betrayed human frailties.....how dare you! I lifted my hands in horror and became judgmental, shame upon me!

I can see this market falling for a long, long time. Perhaps for years, with the odd attempted correction thrown in occasionally. I see it similar to the 1929 crash. This continued until 1932.The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell from 381 to 41 over that time. From memory I don't think the markets put in any large increases until about the 50's. One of the reasons I can see this continuing for a long and sustained time is the effect of Index Funds selling down on a regular basis as they follow the indices down. A self sustaining movement down. I am not suggesting for a minute anything sinister or conspiratorial. Just an observation and a reason behind my thinking. I don't see too much panic. Just an orderly and regular sell off.

Spider, many of your friends will have their superannuation decimated and their dreams of a decent retirement destroyed. They will look to lay the blame somewhere. People always do. I would suggest it will be layed at the feet of all those 'bastards' who shorted the market. I can see a lot of active traders/investors jumping into shorting the market. Not a difficult thing to do at the moment, I should think. So shorting will have a high profile. I see even the Macquarrie Bank is looking at offering CFD trading soon.

THEY will say the devastation was all your fault, nothing to do with bad economics or free trade or having so much money in so few hands or whatever.

I believe you and a number of people here will make a lot of money shorting. I don't see people shorting the market as the fault or cause of what I believe is about to happen.

If you are shorting and being successful.........don't tell your mates who have their super locked into a fund. They probably won't want to know you after it is over. They certainly won't wish you well. If you are well off, the odds are, their glances will be disdainful. They won't be impressed with your new Jag or your smart clothes/furniture/mansion. They certainly won't want to hear about your O/S holiday.

What I am trying to put across with this thread is THINK what you are doing. I am not for a second saying you shouldn't short or you are wrong shorting or I think less of you for shorting. In fact go for it, if you can come to the end and feel good about yourself. Please don't come to the end and find all you are left with is a massive harvest of bitter fruit.

I know I would not be able to enjoy what I have made, if the overwhelming end result for the majority, is devastation but that is just me.

So I will choose the hard road, or more to the point I will walk on the 'wild side' and try and survive going long with all the odds against me.

Percy Cerutti trained his athletes by forcing them to run up hills and across rough terrain. They turned out to be winners. I look at it the same way. I may keep falling and never make it.....tough. The only opponent I have is me. I can't fight the market, it doesn't know I exist.

The main control I must have over myself is to disassociate from the outcome. I have to say and believe, I don't care if I succeed or fail, thereby keeping all anxiety out of my psyche. Just focus and run the race to win......against myself.

You asked me what did I think I was getting into when I decided to buy and sell shares?

As you will remember at the end of the sixtys, there was a tremendous mining boom with that amazing collapse of Poseidon. There was such a lot of talk, so much pain. So many people lost so much. I thought..... isn't all that very interesting. So I started to watch the markets and the business people and companies. It became a passionate interest all my life.

When I took over a DIY super fund I finally was able to focus on the market as an asset class. I had difficulty as there are so many shares from which to choose. I didn't do very well, so I stopped. Around that time the family got onto the internet, well that was it, I was away. I found the ASX and I found Standard and Poors and I finally found after a few years, Incredible Charts. I think I spent about 12 months just playing with trend lines and charts. I didn't visit the forum during that time. Once I felt comfortable about charting I looked in at the forum. I found Dogalog and his posts made me laugh and challenged my interpretation skills, so I have been here ever since.

In an up rising share I just feel there are buyers and sellers. I don't feel I have to 'pit' myself against anyone. They chose to sell I choose to buy or vice versa. No drama no psyching out the opposition...just a simple trade going down. So I don't have to think about it very much.

I chose the title 'On the Dark Side' quite intentionally. This I hope will become a challenging thread. Talking about issues that are not 'light and bright' but 'dark and difficult'. If I was to strike a match in a brightly lit room, how much extra would we see? If I take you to a dark room and strike a match, the chances are you may see something you have never seen before. Look into your own dark recesses, you may find treasures you never realized you had.


You asked me to ponder on some questions, which I did. Long and hard. My first answers were not the real ones, so I pondered a bit longer.

Now I will ask you to ponder on a question.

I put up a list of 'tall poppies' who have not been cut down. You asked why I put Murdock and Packer along side the likes of Weary Dunlop.

I ask you "Why not?"

Cheers
Ann


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colin_twiggs
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Ann

Take a look at the "Happy Bithday Gordon" thread and let me know if there is still a problem. I use Mozilla as a browser - displayed the images correctly in the first place.

Regards
Colin


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ann
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Colin,

It is now readable again, thanks. I particularly liked some of Smallworld's comments. Would like to get back to them soon. You are a really deep thinker Smallworld. Bye the way, Happy Birthday for last Sunday. Hopeless to try and read from that posting.

Mozilla...sounds like something from a B grade movie!!!

Oh well, one star again, I guess you can't win them all...sob!

Cheers
Ann


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msparks
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The Average Joe Blow
He works all his life trying to do the right thing.
He pays the highest taxes because he is not quite clever enough or rich enough to have an accountant that could be bothered and there is never enough money in it for them anyway.
He brings up his family as best he can and they work hard because thats what their upbringing taught them.
2,3 or 4 kids working away paying taxes in ordinary jobs.
They keep there house tidy and respectable and are involved with the community via the school or the church or sports or whatever.
They wonder why they have to waite months for operations when they retire but don't complain.
The pension is hardly enough but they get by with a few odd jobs.

Real people,real life,the one's that make this country so great.

Which ones are you talking about Ann?
The point is?

If this is about shorting the stockmarket, Average Joe is a long termer and doesn't even know what the price is from one year to the next and his financial adviser is getting more than Joe out of the deal anyway.
Do you worry about the people playing the horses who lose money too?

I think your thread is depressing and cannot see what on earth you are trying to achieve or trying to say.[jmv]

The only way to lose money in the stock market is to sell your shares.[almost]
A superfund would be unwise to have too much in tiny small caps, and anyone who follows the market at all must have had some early warning signs if they visited any of the share chat.
Besides a 30 or 40 % gain in 2 years could have been 'banked' for a year or two if it were not for 'greed'.
The Telstra's,BHP's.and NAB's are still OK.[for now]
The Argo's etc are still there.

What about all the shorts that may have been caught last week ? IWF possibly?
Playing with CFD's is for the smarties, and they run the risk ,huge risk for the unwary.

Each time they place a well educated bet they leave 5% of their position up for the taking.
No chance of a bounce back next week or next year, no dividend,... gone,......nothing.

Perhaps i am talking about the wrong thing Ann, what is this thread about again.

Is it about rude people, arogant people,nice people, what ?
People who work hard and are good at what they do after struggling and being persistant are entitled to be a little cocky in my view.
Hell ,wouldn't we all and if we weren't, maybe its all bullsh!t you are reading.

Never believe the people who don't tell you about their losses, because they are the ones driving BMW's on a lease back using a credit card , and renting.!!!

Confidence is sometimes seen as arrogance to those people who are not sure of their own capabilities.

And a joke is just some fun, unless someone is in a bad mood and gets the wobblies!

The shorters don't make the market go down, and cycles are a part of life so nothing is going to change that.

Remember we talked about geps and eps Ann.
Thats what makes the market go up and go down.

(Message edited by msparks on May 14, 2005)


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holycow
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Mark,

Very well said. May be I should chime in a little.


1) shorting makes the stock market more efficient (long story here) - it speeds up the cycle of decay and rejuvenation as in our eco-system;

2) stock market/exchange is the heart of a capitalist system - it's harsh and heartless and selfish hence it is ruthless, exploitative and efficient. It works like a "middle man" in between capital and industry - the most efficient/profitable ones get the investment. The inefficient and the ineffective ones get the chop and go under the administrator - either to be "dismembered" or go through some extreme makeover to be reborn.

To quote two in ASX: ION and SGW.

3) Even the greatest investor in this millenium "bet" against his own country, quite unpatriotic - Warren Buffett is shorting against the US$. The latest I read, he's lost 300millions and counting.

Seriously, the Great Depression was not caused by market shorts, it was caused by bum government and bum leadership in carrying out some very poor fiscal and monetary policies.


Cheers.


HC

"... if you've got a chart, I have an opinion!"

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ann
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Hello Mark,

Thank you for taking so much time to post a long well thought out dissertation. I particularly liked your opening......

The Average Joe Blow
He works all his life trying to do the right thing.
He pays the highest taxes because he is not quite clever enough or rich enough to have an accountant that could be bothered and there is never enough money in it for them anyway.
He brings up his family as best he can and they work hard because thats what their upbringing taught them.
2,3 or 4 kids working away paying taxes in ordinary jobs.
They keep there house tidy and respectable and are involved with the community via the school or the church or sports or whatever.
They wonder why they have to waite months for operations when they retire but don't complain.
The pension is hardly enough but they get by with a few odd jobs.


In other words...Too busy earning a living to make any money.

We are blessed in this forum, a microcosmic community, by having the potential to make a lot of money without much effort and time. We are educating each other, helping each other offering support and well thought out advice.

I believe I could approach almost anyone writing in this forum and ask a question and I would get an honest answer. This is a good community.

We are part of a wider community, some of us classed as poor, some classed as wealthy, disabled, alone, enclosed in good family networks, all sorts of people make up a community.

Mark I am not trying to put across any opinion or point of view of mine at all. I am simply posting information or pictures. You are the people who are categorizing, being subjective as to MY meaning......it is not meant to have a meaning from me. It is an exercise in what it means to you. If you find it too hard to look or uncomfortable you have a choice to move away from the thread, or you can challenge yourself and look.

We have a couple of posters who regularly hunt out funny stuff. We all need a laugh. Regularly.

There are times when a little introspection on the 'darker' side of life doesn't do any harm either.

Are you saying that there is no room for a serious look at some places we would choose not to go? The Idea of ...if I don't look it doesn't exist?

I realize I won't win many friends and supporters doing this. I am not trying to be anyone's conscience either. I have my own conscience, that's enough for me. You lot can take care of your own consciences.

Smallworld made an interesting comment on the 'Happy Birthday Gordon' thread. I quote.....

On another thread, I said "when people talk about us, it tells us more about them than they do about us, and the interesting thing about that is your (or ours) reaction to it tells you more about you than it does about them." You can learn a lot about the writer from what he says, and you learn about a lot about yourself from your reaction on what they say

I would like to take that a bit further and say "and you can learn a lot about yourself from your reaction to what makes you feel uncomfortable".

HC,
You say depressions are caused by poor fiscal and monetary policies, you may well be right. The point I am making is this. If the market collapses big time, and I hope I am proved wrong. THEY will look to lay BLAME. THEY don't understand about F and M policies. THEY will understand when the papers scream....it was all caused by the shorters and the hedge funds. THAT headline will sell more papers.

In the truest sense of the word, most people here are NOT shorting the market but are merely buying a contract [placing a bet] as to whether a certain stock will rise or fall. True shorting, as I understand it, is when one borrows some stock from a broker and sells it. At a later stage when the broker is informed that those borrowed shares must be returned, as at any given time there are only a finite quantity of shares that are available to be borrowed. A call is made on that particular trader to return the stock [buy them back]. This is where I can see a 'market efficiency' happening. The way it is being done at the moment with CFD's, doesn't require this 'returning' [buying] of the stock. So there is nothing to halt the downward spiral.

Just my uneducated opinion HC.

Cheers
Ann


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ken
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Ann,

The CFD providers do have to borrow stock to offer a short, at least some of the time.

I have quite a few times been unable to implement a CFD short because stock is not available to be borrowed.

Ken


Price is the leader of the market crowd. (Elder)
Members of the crowd follow the leader and experience the same emotions as each other.
To be independent of the crowd we must not change our behaviour with price.

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ann
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Hi Ken,

I find that most interesting. I was under the assumption these companies rather ran it like a booky set up. Take the bets.....[sell a contract for the difference in price] and then lay off the bet elsewhere if it gets too big. Maybe they can't do that. Maybe that is why they said they couldn't 'borrow' stock. Perhaps there were too many punters on a winning short stock at the time. I see them in the same way as bookies. Bookies don't buy and sell horses. They just take bets and work the odds.

The reason I am surprised about you being told they couldn't 'borrow' the stock is because the available shorting stock is showing up as very little being on loan at the moment.

http://www.asx.com.au/data/Shortsell.txt

Anyway, what would I know. I'm just muddling along.

Cheers
Ann


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ken
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Ann,

They seem to have a relationship with a particular broker for borrowing stock. Probably could borrow elsewhere but don't have the relationship.

They seem to have a list of stocks they can't short which changes over time. VLL entered it after the fall.

I'm aware of that short sell list.

I'm sure they can balance off different clients with short and long positions but I have also seen the stock I took CFD's of either sold or bought on market in slightly smaller quantities at the time I made a trade.

They do lay off the risk but its sometimes in physical stock.


Ken


Price is the leader of the market crowd. (Elder)
Members of the crowd follow the leader and experience the same emotions as each other.
To be independent of the crowd we must not change our behaviour with price.

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ann
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Hi Ken,

Which particular broker do they borrow stock from?

Interesting that VLL isn't/wasn't on the official ASX approved net short sell positions. Yet they were able to short it. I wonder how they were able to do that? I see Man Financial is offering to short/long all 500 stocks as a CFD trade.

I guess it will make it easier for the brokers of the CFD companies not to be followed so closely, as they don't have their individual broker number displayed any longer on the ASX when they put through a trade.

Cheers
Ann


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smallworld
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Ann
I want to acknowledge you for coming out and share your belief, that requires some courage. I also want say that regardless of my opinions, or anyone else here, you are not wrong and should not be made wrong. They are the right opinions according to your belief.

Having said that, I want to tell you a story.

"I love rugby as a sport and has been since school days, but that love was sorely tested in my uni days when the all blacks decided to tour south africa. I've listened to the activists talk at Uni, apartheid was evil and I thought to go there to play rugby was to endorse the regime and that was just plain wrong. I wondered why my heros could be so bloody minded. I though as players they were my heros but as human beings they were just arxx hoxxx.

Recently I got something that changed my outlook entirely, and it came when I was with my kids doing Auskicks. I got two girls, and one of them does Auskick every saturday. Michael, her coach gave the boys and girls a little pet talk awhile back and has been stressing it ever since. He said they were great players, wonderful and committed and he wants them to focus on playing their game. He noticed that some of them were calling the fouls, calling the ball out..... and he wants them to know that they have to let the umpire doing the umpiring and put their best in playing their game."

I have since asked myself if I am committed to be a player, or am i just a spectator or even attempting to be an umpire in my life. Players follows coaching, use initiatives and knowledge. Spectators have a lot of opinions about the game, they are experts at everything but they dont play. As a player, I am committed to play it like its meant to be played, I play my game completely, I play it as others would expect me to play, and most importantly I leave my opinions at home and have the courage to play it full out even when things dont go my way.

No one force me to trade, I choose to trade and when I choose I will play this game, and that includes shorting. I believe that shorting doesnt initiate the market fall, rather a falling market makes shorting viable. I respect those who decide they wont play that game. If thats the case, I encourage them to choose their game and play it full out. But choosing a game must be a conscientious effort and with true conviction.

Ann I encourage you to seek out confirmation of your belief - John Murphy has written something about views in causing fall in market in 1990 in his first book, Intermarket technical analysis. Also the work of a nobel price laureate daniel Kahnerman ..... integrated insights from psychological research into economic science, especially concerning human judgement and decision making under uncertainty".... and choose your game powerfully.

Now jr must something to say about this.

cheers


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dogalog
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Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:23 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Ann-I was disappointed you used US pictures and some yank analysis to make your point.You could have found that the Depression was much stronger,worse and longer in Oz than for the Yanks.It[d'depression] was imported here thru English Bank indebtedness.It hit here and we didn't get out of it til the war and i hope you realise how close we went to being sunk in d'WARII thru maintaining being English lickspittles.It's a pity we transferred alegiance to d'Bloody Yanks,but whattta yagunner do?
Smallworld-I just don't get the comparison between Sport[elite or d'other]and share trading,or being a trader.Share Traders get a longer run for a start.Psych techniques for Sports Stars are ,well, its the mental challenge of fighting your body from saying 'GIVE IT A REST';sporto's aint got the time to give it a rest,they lose all the money and don't get another chance to make it[d'money] again.
In just my opinion,a Trader who thinks like that sports star?is desperate for perhaps recognition,reassurance perhaps they are committed.Just putting your money down,is all the activity needs,you don't want or need to be 'pumped up' about it just do it how you choose.

Anyhow,cheers ann,sorry this wasn't a fun post by me.The subject just ain't funny.Next time try to stay with the Oz angle,it'll be more interesting.

regards,
jr


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ann
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Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:45 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



I am NOT trying to make a point.

This is not a political statement.

Does it matter where suffering comes from. Is it more painful if it is your own countrymen. Get a grip jr. I thought YOU of all people would know what is being attempted here.

Just give me a chance will you. Stop coming the nah nah pick pick pick.

As they say...fools and children should not see things part done.


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ann
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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 05:53 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



OK guys you win...........

I have been a resident almost exclusively of the Back Pages since it started. I was told by jr, NOT to contribute to The Alternative View. This was originally set up for ST/TT, it is now no longer.

I was permitted to contribute occassionally to the Back Pages. Although I have often been told my contributions are not welcome on certain threads. Currently I am not permitted to post on the thread 'IDOL[idle] Chat' in the D'Dogs Breakfast thread. I have always tried to post where I felt it appropriate. Always mindfull of peoples' 'thread rights'. I have made a couple of postings in the upper forum section without 'approval', now I am being threatened with d'chop from jr. I know you will say..."Ann you don't need my approval"......yes jr, I hear you.

Over the last ten months or so I have started one thread in this section that I can remember. This one. I felt the thread of Happy Birthday Gordon said something very important.

Certain words were taken from that post, ie ....Wall Street, greed, shorting, falling markets, tall poppies and so on, sadly, this thread only made it to tall poppies. With all these words, a request was made from Google for images. Once there, following links to stronger images.

These words led to other words and it was an evolving thread. I put none of my opinions into this thread other than to answer criticism from EVERYONE. Even strangers, with whom I had never spoken, felt comfortable to come in and become abusive toward me. Bet everyone was going ..."yeah, get the bitch".

My original intention was to let the images evolve and blend...yes I will confess somewhat esoteric. It was going to be 'free word association through pictures'. Certainly taking people out of their comfort zone.

There is a lot of noisy chatter about psychology of trading/life in the upper regions. Everyone enjoys the designated 'experts' expounding their theories on how to live/trade well if you follow their doctrines. I was challenging you to think deeper. Look into our own lives and see where lies our fears and weaknesses. It is only by challenging these things that weaken us, that we can become strong.

So as I reread the posts I can see it has become totally bogged down with people telling me how uninformed and mistaken I am. That the Australian Depression was worse than the American one and why didn't I talk about Australia. Well jr, after 75 years or so I can't see this thread could offer a single new word on the subject. Surely it has been raked over by so many for so long, what would be the point of discussing it here?

jr in your IDOL Chatter section, you suggested I put my 'hoof' in my mouth, I am guessing you mean in the thread 'going long' in the upper regions talking to 007. I was mistaken about the payment of dividends. I have NEVER EVER implied, suggested or said I am an expert. In fact I go to great lengths to be up front and honest about who I am, what I know or don't know and what and how I buy. There are probably people out there reading these pages, who also did not know about the nitty gritty of divies. Hopefully they do now.

Foolish of me to try to contribute in any other form than regurgitating old and new theories pinched from motivational tapes and books. Unless you control your own fears by facing them and understanding them, no amount of Zig Ziegler/Norman Vincent Peale, will get you anywhere.

As I look at those pictures, I see people disempowered, devalued. Wasted lives. You don't need a depression for this to happen to people. It happens to children, battered wives, battered husbands [that most heartbreaking of all situations for a man], the unemployed, the elderly. Token women on a male forum! Even the most wealthy individuals can feel this. Money or perceived success won't stop these feelings. A person's wealth and strength comes from within. Nothing external will ever create a wealthy individual. Trappings of wealth are an illusion, quickly lost to the eye of the possessor.

If people say to themselves......."I will be happy when.....".
I say "when" will never come.

I will now allow this thread to die its natural death. In time it will be buried under tonnes of IDOL [idle] Chatter, no doubt.


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oldwombat
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smallworld
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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:14 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Ann,
"sadly, this thread only made it to tall poppies." dont stop posting Ann and dont let anybody stop you from expressing yourself, and not the least me.
I dont read all the posts on this forum, but I read yours. I think you are trying to tell us that there is a darker side to humanity, and greed sometimes bring out the worst of us. It is possible that we are not even aware of it when we are all too busy in our quest. If we can make a distinction of this nature, then we can exercise our choice. Is that true?
keep posting, you'll also be better at it, you owe it to yourself to be heard.
PS if I misunderstood you, you need to correct me.


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ann
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Hi Smallworld

Thanks for the encouragement. In my opinion greed is merely a symptom of fear. Fear limits success.

This is a public forum first and foremost. If even one person votes negative and all others abstain, negativity will win.

Cheers
Ann







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ann
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