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Made In China

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colin_twiggs
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I am sure that many readers are outraged by the treatment of Tibetans, but feel powerless because of the intransigence of the Chinese government. That is an illusion -- far from being powerless, you can make a difference.

If you are unhappy with the Chinese government's actions, withhold your support. When you next make a purchase, if an item is made in China, don't buy it -- find an alternative.

Pass this message to your friends. A single grain of sand has no power, but anyone who has been caught in a sandstorm will tell you it is an irresistible force.

Regards,
Colin

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke


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ohkoolnutz
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Rather than cutting off demand for Chinese products we could send a much stronger message. We should cut off supply of commodities used to produce Chinese products. Let's stop all Australian commodity shipments to China and show them how serious we are in supporting the Tibetans.







---
ohk

Lies, Damn Lies and Technical Analysis

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colin_twiggs
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Would love to .... but a bit old to start chaining myself to ore trucks.

Regards, Colin


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ohkoolnutz
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The Good: Tibetans Kosovans Timorese Palestinians
The Bad: Basques Chechens Kurds Quebecans
The Ugly: Humans


---
ohk

Lies, Damn Lies and Technical Analysis

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colin_twiggs
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There is probably good and bad in all of us.


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ohkoolnutz
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We could all buy BHP and when in control of the company decide who gets our commodities.

Of course I am being sarcastic. I don't like physical or mental coercion but it is out of our hands and looking at the world today and in the past this planet is full of hypocrisy of how policies are applied selectively to equal circumstances.

It's very easy for us to judge from afar how to maintain a stable society of a billion people. Yugoslavia had ten years of war as it broke apart and is still officially a war zone. You could expect at least 100 years of war if China loses control over its regions.

It may be in the best interest of the current Tibetans to become free people. It may be in the best interest of the greater human race to sacrifice some groups' minority agenda to contain greater separatism which could lead to world war.

Don't get me wrong. I am sympathetic to any burden any human faces. I am a current affairs, politics and economics fanatic but the sheer volume of injustice existing in the world has convinced me of the following:

"Improve the world by improving yourself."


---
ohk

Lies, Damn Lies and Technical Analysis

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tyche
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What's bad about "Quebecans"


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ohkoolnutz
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What's good about Timorese? You get my point. It all depends which perspective one has.

Isn't life ironic... It looks like we don't need to stop shipping commodities to China after all. They are doing our job for us:

http://business.smh.com.au/china-locks-out-bhp-and-rio-ore/20080317-1zzz.html


---
ohk

Lies, Damn Lies and Technical Analysis

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colin_twiggs
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This thread is about China and Tibet. If you have a beef about the Timorese or Quebecans, start another thread.


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coyotte
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Although i agree in principle.
i find bit hard to condemn the Chinese, when after all we acquired Australia the same way !

like after China/Tibet where would it stop ?, England/Britain , USA, Europe , NZ etc etc etc.

may be idea to remove the log from our own eye first.


The "Sea of Uncertainty" is defeated by the nimble vessel "Probability", not the unwieldy vessel "Prediction".

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colin_twiggs
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Coyotte,

If we ourselves have, however indirectly, benefited from past oppression -- that should merely increase our moral obligation to speak out on behalf of others.

Regards,
Colin


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azworkinit
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I agree.My local "member",Wilson "Iron Bar" Tuckey would have us believe he was merely observing a culture he purports to know more about than I,rather than sulking on the balcony,as I accused him of at the opening ceremony of parliament recently.I made this accusation in the local rag letters to the Ed(Geraldton Guardian.).Rock on Kevin.I think John got it wrong.Bring the boys home.Oh yeh,I realise this doesn't have anything to do with China or Tibet,but colin's spiel about righting wrongs got me going.


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colin_twiggs
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I witnessed oppression first hand in South Africa and believe it was primarily driven by fear. Some of those fears have since proved to be well-founded, others have not. Similarly, I believe that the Israelis are driven by fear in their conflict with the Palestinians.

What I fail to understand is what motivates the occupation of another country that poses no threat to you. Is it greed? Why did Hitler invade Poland? Because he could? What was the underlying motivation?

Similarly, why did China occupy Tibet? It was not a threat. They do not share the same culture and Tibet is not a wealthy country.

Regards, Colin


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gkoo
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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 02:41 pm:Copy highlighted text to 'New Message' boxEdit Post Delete Post Print Post    View Post/Check IP (Moderator/Admin only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



I think if U take a look at the map, U'll find the main reason for occupying Tibet is because of its border, and
remember the wars between China/India ? Tibet not only
serves as an important buffer between China n India, also
a military launching pad.

As for not buying anything made in China, I think it's easier said than done. The world is so much smaller
because of globalisation, China is a huge link in the
world economy, if not as big as the USA, then, not far
behind. I believe China helps to keep inflation in check,
and of course, it also helps to push up price of oil as well as other raw materials (which of course, Australia is the great provider). Our economic wellbeing is linked to
China, without their high demand on our resources, Australia will be in recession by now.

One good thing came out of all the sufferings by the Tibetan people is that instead of being just a feudal
head living in Tibet, Dalai Lama is travelling around the world spreading buddhism and message of peace to a wider populations.

And I hope the Chinese Govt agree to conducting a meaningful dialogue with Dalai Lama to find a long term solution rather than using brute force to crack down the unrest. I hope Australia cud be the honest middle man
to help opening the dialogue.

Nothing cud force the Chinese to back down, not even the
Olympic game. The govt view their long term survival lies
with border securities, centralised control of population,
govt sponsored religions, and of course capitalism. Talk
of boycott wud only harden their stance.

Rgds/George


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colin_twiggs
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Thank you George,
Appreciate your viewpoint.

There appears to be a common theme running through the posts on this thread: the sacrifice of Tibet is justified to keep costs down..... or our exports flowing..... or maintain our security. I wonder if we would feel the same way if the intended sacrifice was Australia.

Also, the Dalai Lama may be spreading the message of buddhism, but I doubt that he feels as positive about being forced to flee his own country.

Regards,
Colin

(Message edited by colin_twiggs on March 19, 2008)


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bundy
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By co-incidence, I have just left China and am now in Hong Kong and able for the first time to catch up on mail and the news - shees - lots happened since I've been away - not an english news service to be had in weeks - and internet heavily censored and restricted - always seemed to fall over at critical points - and I was conscious that my surfing was being monitored.

Hong Kong has no restrictions on news - a real contrast - great place to shop too!!!!!!!!!


---
Bundy

Good judgment is gained through experience.
Experience is gained through poor judgment.

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gkoo
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TKU Colin, I like most in the free world suffer from
"not in my backyard syndrome" n I'm sure if it happens in
Australia I wud adopt a more bias stance. But thats the
benefit of being one of the pedestrian critics.

I cant say if Dalai Lama is happy to hv his country occupied by a foreign power. But let me say this, I believe his concern is more of the Tibetan population
suffering social injustice and day to day oppression from
the Chinese govt. If he is a true Buddhist, he shud
believe nothing is forever, n the world shud be without
boundaries. Thats why he is happy to just press for religious freedom in Tibet than demanding independence.

For the Chinese to adopt a more relax attitude towards
religions, they wud need to feel non-threaten and secure.
Remember Falun Kung ? the Communist regime wud not tolerate large organised religions as they do know what
it cud do political wise. Look at what happens in the
Muslim world (take Pakistan or Saudi) and Hindu (take
India) and USA (elite Christian the religious right)
and not to mention some of the fanatics in Israel.
The world is better off without organised religions. We shud all just worship privately. Tks for Ur patience.

Rgds/George


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smallworld
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The Violence is not one sided, and from the acounts of a few who were there. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-rage22mar22,1,1624902.story.

"What I fail to understand is what motivates the occupation of another country that poses no threat to you"
I am not sure China has ever treated Tibet as another country for the last 1000 years. Tibetans themselves are not so sure where their own boundaries are. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7304825.stm


Rugby is just a game, it isnt a matter of life or death, it is more important than that

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colin_twiggs
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Smallworld,
Thanks for keeping the thread going.

I witnessed the same in South Africa: violence begats more violence until it either spirals out of control or is brutally supressed.

The boundaries may be unclear, as boundaries often are, but it is clear that Tibet is a separate country with its own culture. Occupation does not give one rights of ownership -- any more than Britain would be justified in occupying India -- or Rome re-occupying France and Britain.

Regards,
Colin


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colin_twiggs
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Question: Where does the 800 lb. gorilla sit?

Answer: Wherever he damn well pleases!!

I think that sums up the behavior of China (or G.B. or Rome in the above post). China occupies Tibet because it suits them to do so. And no one is going to tell them they can't.

It is our duty to create a situation where it no longer suits them to occupy Tibet. In the same way Britain peacefully relinquished the occupation of India. Do not expect quick results, but the constant pressure of world opinion can slowly erode their will to remain.

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Colin : These from CNN report today :

Speaking at a news conference in New Delhi, India, the Dalai Lama on Saturday called China's policy in Tibet "demographic aggression," and said "some kind of cultural genocide is taking place."

"Neither the U.S. nor other participants were able to deviate from the official itinerary," the embassy said in a statement. "The delegation was not permitted to move about independently in Lhasa, and was unable to hold unsupervised conversations with local residents."

I don't think a boycott of poorly made, contaminated products from China will stop the "cleansing" that China wishes to carry out in Tibet .

The Free World's leaders have to show China that " enough is enough" . The only way to stop it is to hit them where it will really hurt . Tell China : "You have a choice, which is something you haven't given the people of Tibet, NO MORE GENOCIDE OR HAVE FUN AT THE OLYMPIC GAMES BY YOURSELF."

Might seem simplistic but I do believe they would get the message . Losing the Games would be a major blow to them.

Regards,

paddy


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gkoo
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The Tibetans do hv grievances on the treatments under the
iron rules of Chinese Govt. But the latest unrest did
nothing to enhance their cause. The violence and damages
largely done by the rioters (If U watched this morning
ABC Asia Pacific Focus interview with journalist from Economists magazine 1st person account how the rioters targeted ethnic Chinese properties and the Tibetan businesses were left safe by displaying white scarf outside their shops etc).

I hv yet to see any protest or boycott work fast enough.
Take communist China under Mao, after decades of boycott
it only changed its policy after leadership changes.
Cuba, it is still communist Cuba, North Korea, even with
famine its still holds on to its nuclear weapon.

No nation wud give in under open threat, their leaders wud
know that if they give in to outside threat, they wud loose
grip on their dictatorship, their power base. Especially
with nations like China, Japan, Korea, and Iran, to loose
face is the most humiliating thing. More so than economical consequences or lost of lives.

As for not selling our resources or not buying Chinese
made goods, plse explain to me how this will work out
in a global economy ? Only way this boycott might hv
the desired effect is for BHP & Rio to cut production
in a large scale, otherwise they will need to find new
market for their products, and where R the new markets ?
Not buying cheap Chinese goods wud means buying more
expensive goods from other countries, we dont buy the
China made goods because we love the Chinese, but because its cheaper.

When we talk about Chinese economy, we shud also take
into consideration of overall Asia economy, which accounted
for more than half of the world economy, and China is the
main link to that part of the world, and for the next
decade, USA economy wud keep declining and we wud be relying more and more on Asia.

History is written in blood of the weaks, justice and fairness only come into play when the stronger parties
become rich and comfortable. If we want to take up causes
for the weaks, look no further than Palestine, where the
real threat to the world peace is coming from, look no further than Iraq, invaded by a strong country with a
filmsy pretext of trying to destroy WMD when the real
purpose is to protect oil supply (which incidentally
backfired when oil prices before invasion was US$25
and now well over US$100). Talking about spreading
democracy while the biggest oil supplier Saudi practicing
any but democracy, how about boycotting buying Saudi
oil ? Not that many nations dont occupy some conquered
land or races, its how nation building works. The weaks
always suffer, be in business, politics, or social
justice. If U want a better world, less conflicts, reducing greenhouse gas ? The only way is to reduce
world population by half. Dont ask me how to achieve
that though. Meanwhile, start family planning as first
step, half for mom, half for dad, and sorry. nothing
for the nation (and there goes our baby bonus).

Rgds
George


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colin_twiggs
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George,
I agree that turning this into an ethnic feud will not help the Tibetans cause.

It will also take time to effect change. South Africa is a classic example. It took 30 years from Sharpeville
to the release of Mandela. It would have taken a lot longer if it were not for international pressure and formal and informal sanctions on South African exports.

Going back to my analogy of the 800 lb. gorilla: The 800 lb. gorilla can sit wherever he pleases, but even he knows not to sit on an ant nest.

Regards,
Colin


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gkoo
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Hi Collin

I believe asa China feels their political and social
control over Tibet is secured, they will sit down and
talk to Dalai Lama regarding religious freedom (Chinese
style!!!). It wud come sooner than we expected, but not
while they R still under world scrutiny. It will happen
quietly, behind closed door, and I think our Kevin Rudd cud
be a honest broker in all this.

By the way, the average weight of gorilla is around 200lbs.
King Kong cud be 800 lbs. though no reliable stat to
verify this.

Rgds/George


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colin_twiggs
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Paddy,

I believe that the Olympic Games on their own are not sufficient to change China's position.

George,

They will not want to lose face by giving in to pressure. They need to be persuaded rather than threatened.

Male silverback gorillas can reach 600 lbs. The 800-pound gorilla is a colloquial expression (e.g. Microsoft is the 800-pound gorilla in the software industry).

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Colin : As far as China is concerned Tibet and Taiwan have been / are / will always be part of China and any problems with the inhabitants are solely "internal matters" and the outside world should mind their own business.

Boycotting the Games would be a good starter point . However it probably is only a small matter in the big picture . That is China's quest to control the strategic resources of the world through their state-owned companies .

Another "investment" was announced today - 11% of Fox Resources. Then there was Canadian Tyler Resources to acquire 500 million tonne Cu-Zn-Au-Ag deposit in Mexico; Canadian Northern Peru Copper to acquire deposit in Peru.

And of course add to the list with Albidon, Allegiance and Midwest .

One way to make them sit up and listen is through Foreign Ownership Review. One rule that needs to be implemented is no ownership by SWF or state-controlled companies or using companies of free world as puppets to deflect criticism . One comes to mind Alcoa in purchase of Rio Tinto shares by Chalco/Chinalco .

Talking to them will never, IMO, result in anything but lots of words while they carry on with their master plan .

Regards,

paddy


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colin_twiggs
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Paddy,

An alternative view to "seizing control of the world's resources" would be that they want to shift their investments out of fast-depreciating funny money and into real assets. After all, they have not gone for a controlling interest in many of these companies.

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Colin : They have gone after whole companies in Canada. They spend what they need to acquire the resources. I think that they would meet with resistance in Australia . Anyways a minority interest with an off take agreement accomplishes their goal -"control of the resources".

From the Telegraph
It will then - so it hopes - explode on the world, earning patriotic fervour at home and profits abroad by funding China's new "go-out" strategy to assert its presence in the world's resources and financial markets.

The $14.1bn dawn assault was entirely financed by CDB, which also said it could if wanted guarantee the funds needed for an outright takeover.

Link : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/04/01/cccdb101.xml&p age=1

Regards,

Paddy


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medicine06
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During the riot in Tibet all we read or heard are from western media which is one side story not complete picture. Please look this website it is in Chinese but some videos are in English, it may help you get both side view. http://www.china247.com/news/2008-03-22/149837.shtml

I know some people feel sorry for Tibetans, just wonder if in Australia the aborigines start kill other nations and destroy they business burning they houses, tell all other nations get out this country they want independent. What our government will do and what the media will say.

Also “ if an item is made in China, don't buy it” how long can you last.

Regards


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ken
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Medicine06,

You sound like a mouthpiece for the Chinese government. Is Wicks your real name? In Canberra (misspelt) are you in the Chinese Embassy?


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medicine06
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Dear Ken,

My name is Wicks and I do not work in the Chinese Embassy. And I have nothing to do with the Chinese government.

I came to Australia more than 20 years ago. However I lived in China during the period (1965 to 1969) when the Dalai Lama had problems with the Chinese government and moved to India.

During this period the Chinese Prime Minister (Zhou En Lai) went to India 4 times to talk to the Dalai Lama and asked him to return to China to become a religious leader and possibly one of the leaders of the country.

I recall at the time, many Tibetan children from poor families moved into other provinces in China and were fostered by families (and the Chinese Government), where they received improved education and a better life style.

In 2005, I visited China and stayed in a Tibetan home. The people seemed very happy and indeed expressed that sentiment. I was surprised to find they paid less tax than the rest of the Chinese tax payers.

I was also informed that Tibetans were given more favourable treatment in terms of pay rates, holidays and education.

You might also be interested to know that the Chinese government pays wages to the Lamas, also give to them houses and cars.

So Ken, please believe that there are 2 sides to a story.

There are some books you can read:
1: A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951 By Melvyn C. Goldstein Gelek Rimpoche http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Upwq0I-wm7YC&dq=tibet+history&pg=PP1&ots=p6C SnAqMWg&source=citation&sig=OwTtGgJU_CkpMi8Lcnog1fUo7KY&hl=en&prev=http://www.go ogle.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enAU213AU213&q=Tibet+ history&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=bottom-3results

2: The making of modern Tibet by A. Tom Grunfeld http://books.google.com.au/books?id=odyxWQGD2eoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+maki ng+of+modern+Tibet&sig=cA8uubOT9396O96ry24oVePpfLY


Regards


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medicine06
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Sorry Ken,

I wrote the time wrong, should be “ However I lived in China during the period (1956 to 1959) when the Dalai Lama had problems with the Chinese government and moved to India.”

When I was young I have heard a lot of story about Tibet from family members and friends, they were work in Tibet for some years.
In fact the Chinese Government has spend large amount money each year to help Tibetans.

Cheers


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gkoo
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I believe discussion in this forum shud stick to the
facts rather than getting emotional and finger pointing.
If any opinions contain false information then we shud
respond accordingly. There is no winner in any form
of political discussion, consensus always hard to come
by, but we cud always try to maintain a cool head.

Rgds/George


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colin_twiggs
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In any conflict there are bound to be human rights abuses on both sides, with each side pointing to the other's transgressions as justification for their actions. The conflict merely escalates. I saw a similar situation in South Africa and would hate to witness this in Tibet: where people lose respect for the lives of others and are capable of committing terrible atrocities without any feelings of remorse.

The only way to guard against this is to practice empathy. Ask yourself how would you feel and behave if you were Tibetan. Why have a peace-loving people resorted to violence? You can see their utter frustration and despair - where does this come from?

Regards,
Colin


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medicine06
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Dear Colin,

I believe that the Chinese Government see Dalai Lama as a religious leader, a human being could doing some wrong. The Tibetans look Dalai Lama as a God never doing anything wrong. when Chinese government have different political view from Dalia lama and criticize him, it will upset Tibetans.

The Chinese government should realize Tibetans have different believe. They may very happy the government give money to them, provide good life style, but it only for this life time. They want go to heaven when they die, and want better after life, to have this Tibetans believe only Dalia lama could do for them.

If the problems between the Chinese government and Dalia lama not resolve ,always will have trouble in Tibet.

Cheers


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colin_twiggs
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I believe that Tibetans should be asked to decide for themselves what is best for them -- and not have the Chinese government making the decision for them.

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Colin: With the mindset of the Chinese leaders, the Tibetan people will always be "pawns". The Chinese will eventually, with more Chinese immigrants, make Tibetans a minority in what was once their country .

Just look at their latest threat with Australian iron ore producers :

"China steelmakers warn Australian miners of revenge"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1996548/posts

I'd say they are already well on their plan to eliminate Australian iron ore . The joint venture steel complexes in Brazil with Vale are the way they will try to accomplish their goal. Produce steel and still have Vale ship iron ore . Produced steel with iron ore from India will perhaps eliminate need for Australian iron ore .

These are matters of importance to them . Not some petty internal problem with inhabitants of China's Tibet . And they could care less about foreign devils protesting about police matters in Tibet .

Regards,

Paddy


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gkoo
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Hi Wicks

If Dalai Lama did follow Zhou En-Lai's invitation returned
to China, mostly likely he wudn't survive the Cultural Revolution during 1966-1976 when the Gang-of-Four in
play.

As for huge amount of money the Chinese government spent in
Tibet it certainly not out of kind heartedness but
more an exercise of opinion buying exercise. But with
the huge influx of Han population into Tibet the Chinese
government did seem to favour the expats rather than
adopting a equal opportunity policy for both races,
hence the political unrest (high unemployment, lower
living standard and unequal power sharing in the local
government level).

Rgds/George


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paddy
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This may be a start but won't stop Chinese .


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7332139.stm

Zarkozy's conditions :

"Three conditions are indispensable for him to go," she said.

"An end to violence against the population and the release of political prisoners, investigation of the events in Tibet and the opening of dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

"These discussions should be about the recognition of Tibetan autonomy and the spiritual, religious and cultural identity of Tibetans."

If he holds to his word I somehow don't think he will be attending ceremony .

Regards,

Paddy


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medicine06
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Dear George,

Sorry reply to you late, I went to Sydney for two days just come back home.

Yes Cultural Revolution was disaster in China, everybody had hard time no one like it, even some top country leaders are dead during the Cultural Revolution.
After 30 years today I am very happy to see China’s development, so far in China not many people are homeless compare with before, and they have enough food to eat.

As I said In 2005, I visited China and stayed in a Tibetan home, I saw how Tibetans are living, how much more the government give to them compare with Han nation. In fact the Tibetans are treated much better in many ways comparing with how the aboriginals are being treated here. People should open their eyes to address this issue which is much closer at home instead of minding what is happening in China. Social justice and charity should start at home, and not 10000 miles away, otherwise, we are making ourselves into some kind of hypocrites!

The way I look at 14/03 riot in Tibet: firstly, the rioters are just a small number of people and they do not represent the whole of Tibet, Secondly, they are definitely not peaceful with so many Chinese getting killed and their properties burned. Thirdly, the rioters, my get feeling is they are not the common peasants.

I suggest if anyone really care about Tibetans please go to Tibet and stay there help them for some times, find all true happening yourself, it will be much better than only talk.

Cheers


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paddy
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Colin : By this report from the BBC "Hell will freeze over" before there will be any western reporters allowed into Tibet.

""According to BBC political correspondent, Laura Kuenssberg, officials from the British Foreign Office suggest that one way to settle disputes about biased reporting would be for China to allow the international press free access to Tibet.

But Ms Fu says that Western media has to earn China's "respect". ""

China will carry on resolving their "internal problems" without interference / false reporting by those "foreign devils" .


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colin_twiggs
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Medicine06,

Listening to you reminds me of South Africa 20 years ago. Popular sentiment within the country was that the problems were an internal affair.... that South Africa was misunderstood by the international community.... and misrepresented by the international press.... that the trouble was caused by instigators (or rabble-rousers).... that people only participated in strikes or stay-aways because of intimidation.... and that they were far better off than they would be under a democratic government. Sound familiar?

What many South Africans only later realized is that the international community may have been mis-informed about the true situation, but so were they. Their fears and misconceptions were were cleverly manipulated by the state-run media.

China has absolute power over Tibet and need not feel threatened by international concern. At the same time they need to recognize that Tibet is the first in many obstacles in their path to realization of their full potential. To respond with force may achieve short-term results but a long-term setback. To engage the Dalai Lama and the international community in a dialogue over the future of Tibet, while it may seem threatening and unnecessarily risky at first, would win general international acclaim and take them closer to their long-term goals.

Regards,
Colin


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colin_twiggs
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Paddy,

That is typical of the fortress-mentality (laager-mentality) that I observed 20 years ago.

Regards,
Colin


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medicine06
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Dear Colin,

I can appreciate many of the points you raise. However a direct comparison with South Africa is most probably not valid as an overall concept.

What we all have to realize is that the problems China faces in reaching its true potential are truly momentous -
and China knows best how to deal with the situation. The remarkable advances (yes, in Tibet too) since the Cultural Revolution are a testament to this.

Imagine the mess and confusion if China heeded the mixed bleatings of the international press. Or even worse the whims of do-gooders and civil-libertarians.

It is also important to appreciate the financial and intellectual aid China gives to third-world countries -credit for which is rare in the international press.

When the international community passes judgement on China it must take into account China's actions are for the benefit of its people as a whole - and not a minority group of rabble-rousers who are given tacit approval by the international press.

Regards.


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colin_twiggs
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Medicine06,

Your post merely reinforces my belief that there is a direct parallel with South Africa. Those words could have come straight from their Foreign Affairs ministry 20 years ago.

"China knows best how to deal with the situation." I believe that China does not know how to deal with this, which is why it is regressing to old hard-line tactics. The same happened with Tiananmen Square protests in 1989. These actions do not advance China's cause.

I agree with you that they need to be cautious in implementing change, but at the same time they need to move forwards -- not backwards.

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Colin : I think this sums up the problem in Tibet . Just like a wild animal - don't bother it and it will leave you alone. Put it in a situation where it feels threatened [ i.e. cornered] and it will become aggressive . From CNN :

The Dalai Lama has asked supporters to desist from disrupting the relay. But some had said they intended to make a more dramatic statement.

"We are not all Buddhas," Rigzin, of the Tibetan Youth Congress, said. "At the end of the day, we are human beings. We have been pushed and shoved so much for the past 60 years, we have been pushed into a corner."


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paddy
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Time for world governments to seriously consider boycotting the Olympic Games . From CNN :

Nepal has given its security personnel permission to shoot pro-Tibet demonstrators during China's Olympic flame climb to Mount Everest's summit early next month.


"About 25 soldiers and policemen have established camps on the mountain and they have been ordered to use force if necessary to stop any anti-Chinese activities," Mod Raj Dotel, spokesman for the home ministry, said Sunday. "This could mean shooting if necessary."


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007
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Absolutely great to see that some are still pushing for this. Please keep it up.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgWqyLt41w
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Slphx9Cymys&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=c93iUNoeJrg&feature=related


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colin_twiggs
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We need a wider medium than this forum to promote awareness of the plight of Tibetans. If you have the time, write a letter to your local MP, post on other forums, .....or phone Bob Geldof/Bono and ask them to organize a concert.

Regards,
Colin


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paddy
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Informative article re China :

THE GEOPOLITICS OF CHINA:
A Great Power Enclosed
By George Friedman


http://www.investorsinsight.com/


Regards,

Paddy


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ohkoolnutz
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http://www.investorsinsight.com/blogs/john_mauldins_outside_the_box/archive/2008 /06/12/the-geopolitics-of-china.aspx


---
ohk

Lies, Damn Lies and Technical Analysis

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paddy
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" China buys whole mountain in Peru>




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7460388.stm


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paddy
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China Rebuked by Olympic Committee

The sky above Tibet will never change. The red five-star flag will always fly above this land," Zhang said, referring to the Chinese national flag that was adopted by the communist regime that occupied Tibet in 1951.

"We can definitely smash the separatist plot of the Dalai Lama clique completely," Zhang


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/26/olympics.politics.ap/index.html


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paddy
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Simply put " No Hope for People of Tibet" as "Bush has NO BALLS".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376822,00.html


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paddy
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From CNN Report:



China to halt flights for Olympic launch


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/18/beijing.security.ap/index.html



The warning for the entertainers appears to be part of a wide-ranging set of measures China has put in place ahead of the Olympic games to stop not only political protests but also physical attacks.

Performance rules, which were first introduced in 2005, are being reinforced to guard against entertainment that could tarnish the country's carefully cultivated image of order and control. Authorities were alarmed in March after Icelandic singer Bjork shouted "Tibet! Tibet!" at the end of her concert in Shanghai.

Authorities said her outburst "broke Chinese law and hurt Chinese people's feelings," and vowed to be stricter on foreign performers.

The notice on the Ministry of Culture's Web site on Thursday said China should strengthen rules about foreign performers, including checks on their backgrounds.

"The content of the performance should not violate the country's law, including situations that harm the sovereignty of the country," the notice said, adding that they should also not harm "national security, or incite racial hatred and ruin ethnic unity."

Musicians in Beijing have gone into hibernation this summer as live performances have been stopped in bars, a music festival canceled and clubs suddenly told they need a live performance license.

The South China Morning Post reported Friday that the crackdown on bars included police forcing bar managers in the popular Sanlitun district to sign agreements pledging not to allow black people into bars during the Olympic Games, as well as other "undesirable" elements.


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paddy
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Take note all you politicians "sin huevos" that are planning on attending the Opening Olympic Ceremonies because you don't want to offend the Chinese. You, whether you know it or not, have contributed to the exterminate Tibetans and any other folks with ideas, thought of Democracy . Forgotten that Ideal or is it just for the Games?

CHINA TO LIMIT WEB ACCESS DURING THE GAMES

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/31/sports/olympics/31china.html?hp



To all those spineless politicians : Viaja con Diablo!


Paddy


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paddy
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Why did they wait until Olympics nearly finished to publish?

China Squelches Speech the Simple, Ancient Way: Ann Woolner

Say it's your job to quash protest in your country's capital city, even as the whole world is watching. You don't want to look repressive, but you don't want malcontents embarrassing your nation, either.


You've got plenty of work to do, so why not publicly invite any troublemakers out there to turn themselves in?

That way, you don't have to run about the country looking for them. Nor would you have to roll tanks over them if they show up en masse, say, at the central square.

Ah, but how to get them to come?

In the run-up to the Olympics, Chinese officials invited people wanting to protest to come into government offices and fill out forms identifying themselves and listing their complaints against the government, the slogans they intend to use and any other people wishing to join them in dissent.

China lured them by saying it would happily allow peaceful demonstrations during the Olympic Games for those who register ahead of time and confine their protests to certain parks.

True, those sites are far away from Olympic venues, but the plan was sufficiently accommodating of free speech to win approval of the International Olympic Committee.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601072&sid=ablmw2r1rrPM&refer=energy


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colin_twiggs
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quote:

“China’s military spending is growing so fast that it has overtaken strategy,” said Professor Huang Jing from the Lee Kwan Yew School of Public Policy in Singapore. (He kindly let me quote his remarks.)

“The young officers are taking control of strategy and it is like young officers in Japan in the 1930s. They are thinking what they can do, not what they should do. This is very dangerous.

“They are on a collision course with a US-dominated system”.




Interesting analysis from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Telegraph: China’s young officers and the 1930s syndrome


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  • Repressive regime
  • Centrally planned economy
  • Rising nationalism
  • Expanding military ambitions
  • Fuelled by strong economic growth
I believe it was Niall Fergusson who asked "What two countries over the last century have met these criteria?" His answer:
  1. Nazi Germany in the 1930s; and
  2. China today.



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quote:

If China continues to believe that it can bully its way toward its ends, it will discourage other countries from engaging with it diplomatically, making them in turn more willing to unite against Chinese interests.
As nonlethal as the most recent dispute has been for China, the outcome of the next run-in may not be so happy: Japan may not back down as quickly, and the U.S. may be unable to stay neutral, leaving China with two choices: retreat, which would unleash nationalist fury inside the country, or chance an outright clash. Avoiding this kind of scenario should be foremost in the minds of Chinese leaders both military and civilian. The stability of the next decade may depend on it.




Woken Up by a Stirring Dragon
Asia is catching on to China's new hardball foreign-policy tendencies.
By MICHAEL AUSLIN
Director of Japan studies at the American Enterprise Institute


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This time around, the government will likely up the ante. With renewed emphasis on social justice and rule of law will come new commitments to "economic rebalancing," code for a shift from an export-based economy to one based on domestic consumption. So too will come commitments to accelerated urbanization, an important, but by no means sufficient, driver of expanded consumption...........
It is a breathtaking, almost implausible, political agenda. It is made only barely credible by the incremental progress the government has already made on at least some of these fronts since the last five-year plan.




Where China Is Headed
By EDWARD STEINFELD, WSJ

We should focus on the positives while not ignoring the negatives: the rapid economic growth of China is both a threat and an opportunity.

(Message edited by colin_twiggs on October 16, 2010)


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Perhaps Beijing's rare earth controls are a gambit to head off protectionist policies germinating in the U.S. and Europe. If so, a happy outcome is possible, which is that all sides abide by their commitments. But if Beijing is denying the world access to rare but vital elements as part of mercantile agenda to enhance its own nationalist advantage, then this is a rare case in which a trade dispute needs to be elevated to a security and political matter and China's access to other markets put squarely on the table. The rationale for enmeshing a rising China in a system of global rules breaks down if Beijing violates those rules with impunity.




China's Rare Earths Gambit
Wall Street Journal


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quote:

Central to China's approach are policies that champion state-owned firms and other so-called national champions, seek aggressively to obtain advanced technology, and manage its exchange rate to benefit exporters. It leverages state control of the financial system to channel low-cost capital to domestic industries—and to resource-rich foreign nations whose oil and minerals China needs to maintain rapid growth.

China's policies are partly a product of its unique status: a developing country that is also a rising superpower. Its leaders don't assume the market is preeminent. Rather, they see state power as essential to maintaining stability and growth, and thereby ensuring continued Communist Party rule.





China's 'State Capitalism' Sparks a Global Backlash
By JASON DEAN, ANDREW BROWNE And SHAI OSTER
Wall Street Journal


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Message received from a reader:

Good day Colin Thanks for the trading diary sent to me today. While reading it, I felt a bit uneasy when I found that while you mention countries without "freedom of speech", China was listed in line with countries like North Korea. I try to be blunt and dare to challenge you by asking you a question: does this unconsciously reflect your negative feeling about China's political system? Singapore, a nation regarded as an ally of the west, has a superficial system, in my mind, with a "democracy" tag on it: the leaders of its opposition party have been constantly persecuted by its government over the past decades. Have you ever heard much of fuss about it in the media of the West? Same Phenomenon existed in Iraq when the West were in honey moon with Saddam Hussein..... Nevertheless, the political regime in Singapore is a mixture of democracy on collective base and authoritarian political meritocracy approach. Interestingly, Singapore and North Korea share something in common: the top leaders of the upper generation in both countries "passed" their power to their sons. I find this fact very sarcastic. Am not sure whether you have been to China or not. However, as someone grown up there till the age of 22 (almost 42now), my personal experience and my version of comparison between what are happening now up there and the situation of 30 or even just 20 years ago, tell me a very different story. Nowadays, people living in China not only dare to criticize their government in many aspects, their ways of criticizing the government have also multiplied. Nobody denies that China is far from being good enough, it has its own pros and cons. For example, while our federal government just legislated a bill related to paid maternity leave not too long ago, , it has been taken for granted by the public in China for decades.; over their, they have a much higher percentage of female in management roles, in comparison with the situation in Australia. People in the industrialized nations have a kind of common, unexpressed fear about China and Chinese: they fear that China's influence will grow to such a level that their life style, their values, their political system, and ultimately, their feeling of "being better", be put under threat. Perhaps not many of them ever thought in such a way:if a group of people have been put up with another group for long, why can't the opposite situation happen one day? In Chinese's perspective, everything has it own way to take place, develop and survive, and most importantly, things develop in cycles, so everything has it own chance to prospect and fall, inevitably. Chinese also believe that there is nothing eternal in this world, that means the lead of the industrialized nations in a wide range of aspects of the current life of human beings in the globe, will eventually disappear. For the same reason, if in the far far future, countries in a different continent, say, Africa, grew strongly and became the world leaders, Chinese wouldn't be too surprised and would accept that fact with peace of mind, because they know that nobody, or country, can lead the world forever--they conclude so with their own history of rise and fall. If that will be the case in the end (I should use a more accurate word--"later", because there is no such a thing as "end"), people (and politician?) living in the industrialized countries may start to think now: they have been left behind us and trying to catch us for decades, will it happen one day that we will start to chase them instead? Actually, the process of turned-around-chasing has already started. In regards of political system, I think an approach of "you can not find the best partner, but surely there is a most suitable partner somewhere" may be better. American's endeavors to "graft" democracy to some nations, or even forced them to convert into democratic regime, have largely failed. Perhaps Americans can do a much better job in promoting democracy worldwide, not by stapling its own national interests to almost everything it does, instead rather, by addressing more on the needs of poverty reduction in other countries? Interestingly, that is what Chinese have been doing for many years --they try to help others while helping themselves. The difference between these two types of approach, in my mind, demonstrate the fundamental distinct between capitalism perception of dominance and greed, and the traditional Chinese perception of harmony and common prosperity. It is quite remarkable that the result of competitions between the pair has gradually floated throughout the past 10 years, especially after GFC. I respect your right of expressing your opinion, and being a long term reader of your trading diaries I highly appreciate your comments on other topics such as investment wisdom, as well as your insight on the financial markets. I regard this reply as a form of exchanging ideas, and thank your for reading. Best regards JL


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colin_twiggs
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JL,

Thank you for agreeing to my request to publish this discussion on the forum.

Having lived under an autocratic government in South Africa for more than 30 years I am strongly opposed to any form of autocracy. Autocracy is not a black or white issue as you pointed out: there are the extremes of North Korea, Iran and Myanmar, but there are many other countries such as China, Singapore or Russia (where the death toll among journalists belies their claims to democracy) that are somewhere along the spectrum. Even countries like the US at times display elements of autocracy. The Valerie Plame affair, depicted in the movie Fair Game, is an example.

The dangers of an autocracy are two-fold. First, if the government shows little respect for the rights or welfare of the individual in their own country, it follows that they will care even less for the rights and welfare of individuals in other countries. This was evident during the colonial era, where other cultures were often treated as sub-human by their colonisers and openly exploited. That largely ended with revulsion at the atrocities committed by Fascist governments in the 1930s and 1940s. Isolated examples, however, such as the occupation of Tibet, still survive.

The second danger is the power of propaganda. Governments entrench themselves in power by attempting to control the mind-set of the people. An open society with a ready exchange of ideas and opinions will not tolerate an autocracy, so autocratic governments attempt to create a close-minded outlook, constantly feeding the public a heady mix of fear and nationalist fervor. Common threads are suppression of free speech, tight control of the press and universities, continual reinforcement of the message that the country is mis-judged and unfairly persecuted by the outside world, and attempts to instill a strong nationalistic pride in their subjects.

When you combine a powerful economy with (1) a strong nationalist fervor and (2) little regard for the rights of individuals in other countries, then there is nothing to prevent the subjugation and exploitation of weaker neighbors. In short, you have another Nazi Germany.

While I am strongly opposed to autocracy, I am not a great believer in Westminster-style democracy as practiced in the US, UK and Australia. Frequent changes in government disrupt the execution of any long-term plans and result in ineffectual government. Italy, with constant changes in the ruling coalition, is one of the more extreme examples. As you pointed out, harmony and prosperity go together. Instead I advocate a Swiss-style democracy, which is capable of delivering stable government even in deeply divided societies by avoiding a winner takes all outcome; emphasizing consensus rather than opposition.

Regards, Colin

(Message edited by colin_twiggs on December 08, 2010)


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quote:

A ceremony Friday to mark the award of the Nobel Peace Prize to Liu Xiaobo, a jailed Chinese dissident, is turning into a global showdown. China is preventing Mr. Liu, his family and friends from attending the ceremony in Oslo, making it the first time there will be no one at the ceremony to accept the award since 1936, when it went to Carl von Ossietsky, a German journalist held in a concentration camp by Nazi Germany.




Nobel Peace Prize Triggers Global Showdown
China, Angry Over Award to Dissident, Presses for Boycott
By JEREMY PAGE
The Wall Street Journal

(Message edited by colin_twiggs on December 09, 2010)


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While Egypt has been growing at half the rate of China, it has hardly been stagnant, and reforms in recent decades are still paying dividends. With a per capita GDP around $5,900, average Egyptians are better off than the Chinese, who earn one-third less. China also scores much worse on income inequality than Egypt......The Party will continue to put out its line that economic growth is resolving social problems caused by one-party rule. But if inflation worsens, history suggests China's stability could prove to be a mirage.




WSJ Opinion: China Isn't Immune to Nile Fever


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Many say that Mao's wisdom was unsurpassable, but it is more accurate to say that few can attain his level of callousness.



Judging Mao as a Man: Only when Chinese strip away the mythology surrounding Mao Zedong will we understand his terrible legacy.
By MAO YUSHI, printed at WSJ.com







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quote:

China's banks are required to set aside loan-loss reserves equivalent to 2.5% of their total loan portfolios. Yet based on the lessons of previous rounds of credit expansion, it's more likely that up to 20% or even 30% of their loan portfolios will turn bad at some point in the wake of the latest expansion.




Chinese Banks Are Worse Off Than You Think: Rosy loan-to-deposit ratios hide a serious nonperforming-loan problem.
By PATRICK CHOVANEC, WSJ.com

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